CYTRONEX v PRO-CONNECT

[Cyclezee]

It is very early days to make comparisons between these two bikes with only a handful of Pro-Connect and a couple Cytronex out there.
Different beasts, but aimed at a similar niche in the market and designed to fulfil similar needs.
The Cytronex is certainly the lighter of the two, but if you removed mudguards, carrier, chain guard and stand from a Pro-Connect, what would it weigh?
I would expect the Pro-Connect to have a greater range, but a second battery for a Cytronex is less than half the price of the Kalkhoff battery and would be easy enough to carry as a spare.
Both are based on good quality bikes from respected manufacturers and have good quality cycle components.
The Panasonic motor is proven and reliable and I would expect the battery to be reliable given that it has a 2-year warranty. The Cytronex is still a bit of an unknown quantity in this area, but sounds promising.
Without having tried either bike, I cannot comment on performance, but I would expect them to be similar?
Aesthetics is often a very important matter when choosing a bike, if somewhat irrational and subjective, the Pro-Connect is undeniably a pretty bike, the Cytronex is a very pretty bike and very importantly, it doesn't look electric.
Availability and customer care, do I need to mention this subject as far as the Pro-Connect is concerned, no. Again early days, but I placed an order on 26/05/08 and the bike should be ready to collect next weekend, less than three weeks later.
Last but not least, price! The Cytronex was £550 cheaper than a Pro-Connect, now it is £500 cheaper, that is a big difference.
There is the possibility that Cytronex could use even lighter Trek bikes in the future.

Food for thought, but to me it is a 'no brainer'

J hn

 

[oldosc]

Cytronex is a very pretty bike and very importantly, it doesn't look electric.
Whoa..I am still a new bloke on the block...but What's wrong with
ELECTRIC BIKE I drive an Agattu The rolls Royce machine , I go where I could not go before..(due to age)
Even when I was a lad ? I never bought into the Lycra brigade..To me a bike was a machine to enable me to do things you could not do without it ( My dad rode across the Nulabor Plain in Australia(1933) on a bike , 1500 miles try doing that on a lightweight road machine..

 

[coops]

I'd have to disagree, John, that the bikes are designed to fulfil similar needs, and I'd also expect performance to be distinctly different in several key areas, though the extent of some of those would depend on the manner & terrain the cytronex is ridden in.

They're both on the light side at 17kg (cytronex) and 20.8kg pro-connect (? is this right? Agattu weight was mis-specified initially) including their standard lower capacity and weight batteries of about 2kg (just for comparison a standard Torq1 without battery weighs around 20kg, less if weight is removed, but the 50% or more higher capacity battery adds about 3.1-5kg depending on type) and both relatively subtly electric, the cytronex maybe more 'normal bike' in looks while the pro-connect more 'normal' in riding without power, apart from the few kg extra (though thats cancelled out by a 2nd cytronex battery for the same sort of range - see below).

With the same level of rider input and at similar speeds, the pro-connect should have much greater range (on one battery close to double the cytronex which would need a 2nd battery to match it rangewise), much steeper hill-climbing ability (though maybe at a slightly lower speed on hills that the cytronex can manage) and lower rolling resistance, despite the lowish friction of cytronex's tongxin motor.

The cytronex has a few mph higher top flat speed as standard, but similar maybe to a geared-up pro-connect (by rear sprocket reduction, as has been done with Agattus). Speed control is more sophisticated on the pro-connect, allowing cruising at any speed and cadence-determined power-assist from rider gearing, while the cytronex uses a simple but also throttleless system of handlebar buttons to choose between 2 power assist levels/speeds.

The pro-connect, as with the other panasonic bikes, should climb almost anything although within rider gearing and with limited power output proportional to rider input, so more slowly the steeper the hill, whereas the cytronex as a hub motor bike has a gradient limit, determined by load weight (rider etc) and rider strength, aswell as battery state. As said elsewhere I'd estimate a 10-12% gradient limit for gentle to moderately strong pedalling and a 13stone/~83kg load, in ideal conditions. For different weights, as a very rough guide adjust the limit inversely proportional to weight e.g. for 10 stone, ~63.6kg load, gradient limit range of (13/10 x 10%) to (13/10 x 12%) or 13-15.6%.

Reliability and support wise, the panasonic unit has a proven track record while the cytronex is a new & rather less proven (though many miles done in testing) but with popular appeal & obviously designed & built by enthusiasts .

Stuart.

 

[Cyclezee]

Oldosc

I didn't say there was anything wrong with an electric bike, but what I do say is that many people are influenced by form as well as fuction and electric bike components do nothing to enhance a bikes aesthetic appeal and in many cases put people off.

As for the Agattu, it is indeed a fine machine and an ideal choice for people of all ages and abilities, I bought 2 myself.
However I fully undersatnd they are not everybodys cup of tea. Those who want something a bit more sporting and like to wear Lycra, personally I would look ridiculous.
Lycra or Spandex was not invented until 1959 and Lycra cycling attire certainly wasn't around when you were a lad Oldosc or myself for that matter.
Personally, I think Lycra is better suited to the female form
Your father must be a remarkable man to ride across the Nulabor Plain on a bike, now there is a challenge for any bike electric or not

J hn

 

[flecc]

I think we are heading towards a three class e-bike future.

1) The motor vehicle replacement, quite powerful hub motors with throttle control where legal, and forming the majority of the sales.

2) The more bicycle like assisted cycling class, typified by those with the Panasonic motors and arguably usually including the Sparta and BionX direct drive sophisticated machines. These have a utility and general use bias, from shopping to commuting to leisure riding.

3) The pure bicycle with a degree of hill climb assistance, very light with limited motor power and battery weight, bringing more civilised physical conditions to sport style cycling. The Cytronex is one of these, and the failed original Diavelo/Schwinn designs were intended to be.
.

 

[coops]

To add to that, a performance comparison between cytronex (category 3) and (unrestricted) Torq1 (a category 1 type) is interesting:

Cytronex motor gearing (and hence top speed), peak power and total weight (for comparable range with same battery chemistry) are all about 25% or so less than the Torq1.

Hill climbing benefits moderately from rider input making up a larger proportion of the energy required, at a lower climbing speed than the Torq1.

Even the motor friction is rather lower too, apparently!

Stuart.

 

[flecc]

To add to that, a performance comparison between cytronex (category 3) and (unrestricted) Torq1 (a category 1 type) is interesting:

Cytronex motor gearing (and hence top speed), peak power and total weight (for comparable range with same battery chemistry) are all about 25% or so less than the Torq1.

Hill climbing benefits moderately from rider input making up a larger proportion of the energy required, at a lower climbing speed than the Torq1.

Even the motor friction is rather lower too, apparently!

Stuart.

The problem with the Torq 1 is that it didn't fit into the classes I see as the future, and that gives the anomalies. It's problem was the overgearing, making a bike with a group 1 motor try to be a group 3 machine, which it could never be for two reasons, weight and high rolling resistance. In it's correct original Quando form, it's a group 1 machine without question, very little cycling necessary, and plenty of power and hill climb ability.

There's a name for that sort of Torq 1 design that's a bit of both, doing neither well. It begins with a "b" and ends with a "d" and has a parentage problem.
.

 

[coops]

ok, so Torq1 illegitimate offspring of group 3 then! The side-by-side comparison with the cytronex makes more sense then too.

Is it just me, or does 'cytronex' make anyone else immediately think of freshly cut lemons, swiftly followed by a sense of confusion when combined with mental image of a bike...? Or even more bizarrely, a lemon-fresh scented bike?!! Some clever marketing here maybe?!

Stuart.

 

[coops]

Just as an afterthought (not going too off-topic I hope John), I think the group 3 bikes would most benefit from reducing rolling resistance from the motor, e.g. when pedalling unassisted (maybe after any group 2 ones which have higher resistance, though the examples given are all low resistance).

If geared hub motors were to be made, designed the way flecc once described, then I'm thinking a 2 gear system: gear-reduced at low/mid speed (up to around 10mph, say) and direct drive at mid/high speed (10mph & up) would eliminate resistance from motor gears and so ease pedalling at cruising speeds, and the more efficient & higher low speed motor torque give improved (and more economical) hill climbing & acceleration? So all-round better performance and efficiency...

EDIT: I hope I've not just duplicated material from the initial geared hub thread.

Stuart.

 

[HarryB]

I have neither ridden the Pro-connect or a Cytronex but I do have an Agattu and a b***dised version of a Torq1. As I have fitted a Tongxin motor to the Torq it does have some similarities to the the Cytronex. It really does feel more like a bicycle with some assistance - so much so that I have been dissapointed by the Agattu which feels distinctly electified. I am sure it will losen up with use but at the moment I think my Torq suits ME better. (For those who are wondering why I bought an Agattu it was because I was fed up with all the battery problems. I just wanted a bike to get on, go to work and back with as little maintenance as possible and the Agattu fits this discription).

But now the Cytonex comes along and muddies the water. However I don't think it will be great for inner city use. Too many buttons being pressed too many times. So that alone rules it out for me.

One thing John. You mention that you will get fitter on the Cytronex. I am not sure this will be true. One thing can be said for the Panasonic bikes is that they make you to do some work. I now come home a lot hotter than I ever did with the Torq. Unless you force youself to use the lowest of the speed settings all the time you will find the Cytronex will do a fair amount of work for you. At least with the Pro-connect/Agattu you can keep to low power setting to help with the fitness.

 

[andyh2]

I'm impressed that we're all so into 'quality' that the comparisons are made on that basis with no mention of price! The pro connect is £500 more (say £470 if you're not local to supplier and need bike delivered) or if range is important £350 (£320) if extra battery bought with cytronex. It is of course difficult to measure longevity at this time for a true cost comparison.

One of the things that has swayed me to the Cytronex is I might well want a second one for my wife and then the price differential starts escalating some. Though to be honest what I'm really waiting for is the cytronex kit to fit to my favourite bike.

It is a bit of an apples and oranges comparison as the Cytronex could be used as commuter most of the time and then easily used as a tourer with a standard wheel and no battery with only the controller and a bit of wiring as extra weight to carry.

 

[Cyclezee]

andyh2,

I did mention the price differential when I started this thread, but with the exception of yourself Andy, every other contributor has not commented on the fact that a Pro-Connect is 50% more expensive than a Cytronex
So if you work out cost per mile for a commuter for example, you will recoup your investment much quicker

J hn

 

[flecc]

I agree Andy that the Cytronex could be used across the roles, but thats also true of the other types to some extent. The bulk of the market in my group 1, (motor vehicle replacement) just wouldn't want the Cytronex type solution, it's too bike like and dependent on full cycling effort for full range etc.

They like quite strong hub motors, which are often lower priced in lower quality forms, so not necessarily losing out on price to the Cytronex.

The fact that the market hasn't yet settled to a distinct pattern as I've suggested means theres some cross group confusion at present. Some of those buying group 2 Pro-Connects and changing the sprockets etc for speed might buy in the Cytronex group 3 when theres a choice of bikes like that available. Others are not too sure about the group 2 pedal assist types and show an inclination to the hub motor bikes.

Once the market grows and matures more, buyers may become more like today's car buyers, who are for the most part very clear on the car type they want for their needs and subsequently confident about their choice.
.

 

[coops]

...every other contributor has not commented on the fact that a Pro-Connect is 50% more expensive than a Cytronex

So now we're comparing the price of apples with oranges?

How does that work then?

Couldn't someone make a bike which does the job of all three groups, with a multi-geared hub motor for simplicity? Then just choose the motor control method (throttle/pedelec) & power level according to riding style & usage?

Could even have a choice of battery capacity/weight for the more weight conscious!

At least then we'd be comparing braeburns with royal galas!

The best thing though would be that proper 'motor gearing' should no longer be an issue: power delivery from the battery & motor determining hill-climbing ability & speed .

Stuart.

 

[frank9755]

Interesting discussion!

I think the Tongxin motor is different from other hub motors so far available, with its negligible resistance and weight enabling a new category of bike to be created - the normal bike + help on hills. I think the Tongxin also lends itself to another category - normal bike with help to go fast on the flat. The Torq I would have been a better bike with a Tongxin rather than a Suzhou Bafang, in my opinion (like Hal's one!). If only the little beauties had proven as reliable as the Bafang motors!

I've been very impressed with what I've read about the Cytronex, and am looking forward to hearing people report high, problem-free mileages to prove that Tongxin has cracked it with its latest controllers.

The thing that I think reveals the Pro-Connect to be a stripped down utility bike, rather than a sports bike, is that they put a hub gear in it, not a derailleur.

 

[flecc]

The thing that I think reveals the Pro-Connect to be a stripped down utility bike, rather than a sports bike, is that they put a hub gear in it, not a derailleur.

I agree Frank, which is why I included it in my group 2. In group 3 I think the Cytronex stands almost alone at present, but hopefully we'll see more like it. It's batteries more than anything else which have prevented earlier development of this group, but now we have some viable light high output types we should see progress.
.

 

[john]

I agree Frank, which is why I included it in my group 2. In group 3 I think the Cytronex stands almost alone at present, but hopefully we'll see more like it. It's batteries more than anything else which have prevented earlier development of this group, but now we have some viable light high output types we should see progress.
.

And curiously, the Cytronex uses a NiMH battery. I'm sure that they will look at lithium as a better long term option.

 

[homemoz]

To add my 10p worth. The Carrera Sparc from Halfords would also fit into catagory 3 and is again significantly cheaper than the Cytronex in the order of things. The Carrera also has a proven, reliable motor and decent hub gearing. It seems to me a shame that this bike has been mostly overlooked as it was aimed at the popular market. I think that Halfords may have withdrawn it, as I can't see any mention in the Halfords 2008 catalogue. Maybe explains why models are heavily discounted. Another attempt consigned to the annuls of history?

 

[flecc]

To add my 10p worth. The Carrera Sparc from Halfords would also fit into catagory 3 and is again significantly cheaper than the Cytronex in the order of things.

I agree, there's no reason why sports bikes can't use hub gears, and before the derailleurs were introduced, they all did.

The Carrera also has a proven, reliable motor and decent hub gearing. It seems to me a shame that this bike has been mostly overlooked as it was aimed at the popular market. I think that Halfords may have withdrawn it, as I can't see any mention in the Halfords 2008 catalogue. Maybe explains why models are heavily discounted. Another attempt consigned to the annuls of history?

I had a feeling that this was a clearance of overstocked Sparcs by SRAM, and may also have formed a test marketing to gauge the interest. It was interesting that Halfords kept it's cycle side staff in the dark about it's existence, it only being known of in the branches that sold them.
.

 

[flecc]

And curiously, the Cytronex uses a NiMH battery. I'm sure that they will look at lithium as a better long term option.

I think that choice was made due to the tiny battery size. Small NiMh cells don't drop to cutout voltages under high load, the just struggle on, but inadequate lithium cells have caused lots of cutout problems.
.