Crank drive performance

I'm considering a eMTB at the moment, and though it's pushing my budget I've looked at bikes with the following motors:

 

Bosch CX

Yamaha PW-X

Brose

Shimano E8000

 

From what I can gather the main features are:

 

Bosch - most well proven and common, I've owned an older Bosch bike myself and never had any issues with it. Allegedly lowest torque but see below.

 

Yamaha - slightly more torque than Bosch and more responsive at startup. However the battery is very large physically and more expensive than Bosch batteries.

 

Brose - Claims the highest torque of all. Brose bikes seem to have the battery in the tube, but Brose don't make their own batteries, meaning future proprietary batteries. Some complaints the motor take a while to start up, a full crank rotation. A significant issue on a technical off-road climb.

 

Shimano - Newest, I don't really know a lot about it. I've had a test ride on their earlier motor and it was Ok. Potential for Di2 integration but I'm not convinced I want Di2.

 

 

 

 

So then I was watching YouTube videos on all these (not much on the Shimano) and I found a German video directly comparing the Bosch, Yamaha and Brose and the Bosch, with the fattest rider aboard, destroyed the others. Easily. He did seem to have a chain drop though. I can't speak German though so couldn't hear their conclusions.

 

Here's a link to that video:

 

 

Opinions?

Don't forget about the Bafang Max-drive. You can program it yourself for speed and power up to 22 amps, which would be 10% more than any of the others. All the parts are readily available and you can use any battery you want.

Don't forget about the Bafang Max-drive. You can program it yourself for speed and power up to 22 amps, which would be 10% more than any of the others. All the parts are readily available and you can use any battery you want.

 

 

Thanks but I've not seen any decent manufacturers speccing the Bafang. I'm sure it's very good, had three of their hub motors and never had a problem with any.

Thanks but I've not seen any decent manufacturers speccing the Bafang. I'm sure it's very good, had three of their hub motors and never had a problem with any.

There's a few around, Freego Martin for example.

Thanks, kinds ruled out the Shimano as it's not well enough proven. The more I read the more it seems to confirm to me that Bosch is still the best choice, for me at least.

Today, there's probably more bikes being sold with the Shimano motor than the Bosch. Bike manufacturers certainly seem to have confidence in it.

value for money, the Bafang MaxDrive is the best.

 

I have the MaxDrive 48V on one of my bikes. £1399.

value for money, the Bafang MaxDrive is the best

As d8veh also says in his earlier post here, it's the versatility of the MaxDrive that appeals most to me: It would grate with me to not only pay a premium to buy a Bosch (or Yamaha) drive, but to then be locked in to buying overpriced batteries/chargers, extended wait times for repair, and paying extra to tinker by using third-party dongles - to derestrict, tailor settings... and even then, having paid through the nose, your display is (most often) still showing wrong information.

 

Buying a Bosch CD seems to me to be akin to buying a speed and power-restricted BMW with the bonnet welded shut - you can't even change the oil or top-up coolant without permission far less attempt any minor adjustment or repair. With Bafang, not only do they enable you to freely tinker with virtually anything, the tools to do so are readily available (i.e. the cable and software to program the thing)l

 

I've had hub-drive bikes hauling my 115kg lard-arse a few miles along a level road and physically smoking... the 36v MaxDrive on my Greenway hauls may fat arse up some seriously steep inclines with power to spare... and I haven't even "pimped" mine as several other owners on this forum seem to have done. Any reports of MaxDrive failure here? No. Not one.

 

It's annoying that several Chinese makers offer these excellent motors on MTBs, Hybrids, Tourers etc at far less than any equivalent Bosch or Yammy drive (Apollo bikes as one example), yet very few importers here in the UK are picking up on that.

 

I hope you, Woosh, pick up that mantle and expand your soon-to-be released MaxDrive with other frame/style variants.

value for money, the Bafang MaxDrive is the best.

 

I have the MaxDrive 48V on one of my bikes. £1399.

Can you get me one of theese and shipp to Norway

 

www.otto.de/p/fischer-fahrraeder-e-bike-mountainbike-em-1762-27-5-zoll-9-gang-mittelmotor-557-wh-550466482/#variationId=550467185

Edited August 27, 20178 yr by 1boris

If Maxdrive is so brillant why aren't any of main brand MTB manufacturers using it.

If Maxdrive is so brillant why aren't any of main brand MTB manufacturers using it.

I'll have more of them in January/February at £1,399 price point.

If Maxdrive is so brillant why aren't any of main brand MTB manufacturers using it.

 

Because if they did:

1) They can't lock you in to buying expensive proprietary batteries

2) They can't lock you in to buying expensive spare parts

3) They can't lock it down enough to prevent users from tweaking it, potentially opening them up to:

a) excessive warranty claims

b) legal action if they are found not to comply with legislation when in use.

I'll have more of them in January/February at £1,399 price point.

Nothing against your bikes but I doubt you can build a decent FS MTB for £1400 let alone add a motor and battery.

Because if they did:

1) They can't lock you in to buying expensive proprietary batteries

2) They can't lock you in to buying expensive spare parts

3) They can't lock it down enough to prevent users from tweaking it, potentially opening them up to:

a) excessive warranty claims

b) legal action if they are found not to comply with legislation when in use.

The bike manufacturers don't deal with drive warranty issues, it is between shop and drive manufacturer. Bike manufacturer doesn't make any money off aftersales standard batteries, bike specfic ones in case of Focus Jam and Specialized are different.

Nothing against your bikes but I doubt you can build a decent FS MTB for £1400 let alone add a motor and battery.

it depends on what you call decent.

give me a target and see how close I can get to it on this budget.

Things like shocks and handlebars are easily replaced.

The basic bike comes with the MaxDrive, 48V battery, Deore 9-speed derailleur.

Woosh, do you have any images of the Bafang Max Drive bikes that you will be offering come Jan/Feb 2018.

Woosh, do you have any images of the Bafang Max Drive bikes that you will be offering come Jan/Feb 2018.

erm... the frame looks remarkably similar to the one 1boris linked too.

 

http://wooshbikes.co.uk/2017/maxdrive/fs7.jpg

Edited August 27, 20178 yr by Woosh

I forgot to mention earlier: Don't forget that the Bafang Max-drive trounced the Bosch in the 24 hour endurance race.

 

http://www.bafang-e.com/en/news/detail/team-bafang-wins-at-the-24-hour-e-bike-race-at-the-nurburgring-in-germany.html

I forgot to mention earlier: Don't forget that the Bafang Max-drive trounced the Bosch in the 24 hour endurance race.

 

http://www.bafang-e.com/en/news/detail/team-bafang-wins-at-the-24-hour-e-bike-race-at-the-nurburgring-in-germany.html

Yes but from what I read Bafang team they programmed them to more current than the Bosch.before the race.But also from what I remember testing a Bafang max it was not as strong as The bosch but it didnt need so much rider input to get max assistance from the motor

Yes but from what I read Bafang team they programmed them to more current than the Bosch.before the race.But also from what I remember testing a Bafang max it was not as strong as The bosch but it didnt need so much rider input to get max assistance from the motor

The only important point is that they won. I'm sure the Bosch guys had whatever they needed to adjust their motors too.

The only important point is that they won. I'm sure the Bosch guys had whatever they needed to adjust their motors too.

How can you be sure about that?

How can you be sure about that?

If you worked for Bosch and your motor was going into an important race and you had access to the Bosch programming equipment, what would you do? Would you wait until the Cheapo Chinese motor had won the race, or would you try and give your guys a chance of winning?

 

It could be that the Bosch can only go as high as 20 amps before it gets reliability problems, while as the Bafang can go safely to 22 amps. Maybe the Bafang guys trusted the reliability of their motor more than the Bosch guys.

 

There's lots of maybes but they're all irrelevant. The only important thing is that the Bafang won the 24 hour race. There wouldn't be any point to the race if both motors made the same power in the same way. They're different and the better one won.

so you say the bafang max is better than the Bosch CX d8veh?

based on one race which the Bafang Max was programmed.And you are guessing wildly I belive it was the 48v version Bafang max drive.For sure the Bosch CX is alot stronger and faster than the orginal Bafang Max drive and Lightyears better technological motor.

A motor is some copper wound around a core, a bunch of magnets, a few bearings and gears in a metal box. The controller is where things get interesting...

 

I think that the max has more potential. I am not surprised it won that race and we certainly need more races to advance the technology.

The race needs to be done with the same driver,and it needs to be done with the bike as it is sold in the store to give the right picture, a hot rodded competition with diffrent drivers doesnt tell the normal buyer that want an legal bike much.If you want potential than just buy a bbs02 250w and change the battery and controller to 48volt 25a.