Cost of electric bikes

[jimmyengland1000]

I've had several electric bikes of various types and they all seem to have one thing in common. They all appear to me to cost a heck of a lot of money for what they actually are. They're nearly all made in China, where labour is cheap, environmental restrictions are nil, raw materials are cheap and production costs much lower than in the West. So we get loads of cheap clothes, shoes, computers, tools etc etc.... right? Nearly everything we buy comes from China and the real cost of electric drills, circular saws, machines of all sorts and.... normal bikes.... has dropped no end. Yes, it's possible to buy a reasonable quality normal bike for about £200... alloy frame, 21 gears, reasonable suspension etc etc. Then there are electric bikes. They have a motor (mass produced in China at any number of factories), a controller (always a little ribbed aluminium box... available NEW in the US for about £10), a throttle (available new for about £5) and a little disk with magnets in to make it work as a pedelec estimated cost £3).. then the charger (available new for about £30). Li-ion batteries are available for about £150 on a one-off basis from a Chinese manufacturer, so buying thousands must make them cheaper. Then the bike has to be shipped from China.

So, why can an electric bike cost £1200 ?? They usually only have 1-7 gears, poor quality cycle parts, cheapo tyres etc etc and are, from a purely cycle point of view, usually inferior to a £200 mountain bike. Plus the batteries have a limited life and are costly to replace.

Has any retailer of e-bikes has actually invested any capital in Chinese production sites? I doubt it... the Chinese have been making e-bikes for years in well-established factories. I reckon they have modified their designs to suit western demands but they are not in any way built on investment by UK retailers. So, bike 'companies' in the UK are just importers... right? No big cash investment to recoup through high prices. So.... again... why are these bikes so expensive, given what they are? For the price of half a dozen of them, you can buy a brand-new car.... which took a lot more design, investment, technology, metallurgy, distribution etc and which will last a lot longer. I mention the car not because I think it is desirable to use one but to illustrate how expensive electric bikes are. Or am I wrong?

 

[Ian]

As with any product the cost has little to do with the true value and everything to do with what people will pay. Until there is more serious competition at the higher end prices will remain high. As Maggie used to say "The market will decide".

 

[jimmyengland1000]

Yes, I think it IS a case of what people will pay rather than the true worth. I've reached a point where, desirable as it is environmentally and regardless of how much fun biking is, I'm just not prepared to pay £1,000 + for a bike that probably costs £100 to make. In fact, once you get used to it, normal cycling with a light, modern bike with plenty of gears including very low ones for hill-climbing (no e-bikes have them low enough in my opinion) is easier in many ways and certainly a darned sight cheaper than paying out £1000+ for an electric bike with a bettery that lasts 2 years. Yes, I'd buy one if the price came down. It ought to, given the numbers that are supposedly being sold but it certainly hasn't yet, has it? So the market has decided in myown case... I'm not buying one. I wonder how many more people out there would buy one if they were more reasonable in cost?

 

[Ian]

In fairness most of the £1000+ bikes do have good quality cycle parts and compare in quality terms to mid range conventional cycles, and some of the excess cost is used to provide back up and spare parts availability, something that is usually non existent at the lower end of the market. My own experience being that quality standards are worlds apart and the opposite ends of the spectrum, it's also worth considering that many of the more expensive offerings are not of Chinese origin.

There are plenty of sub £500 bikes available for those who are prepared to take a risk.

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

Profit versus aggro

I don't agree with everything postulated by jimmyengland1000 but I have always wondered.
We have the wool pulled over our eyes by the introduction of Shipping, Import/Export Duties. rare materials, etc, etc. into the argument. We lose the plot in being naive (untutored in these matters).
What seems certain is that it would be foolish for 50Cycles and eZee bikes to mess us about over the supply of batteries if they were making such a good thing out of it. Or is one on the 'make' and the other not?
Or is there something deeper which we are not privy to?
They ought to come clean.
Peter

 

[jimmyengland1000]

What about the Wisper range of bikes? Where would you put them in terms of expense? I had a 905e which isn't cheap and got rid because I was unhappy re the cycle parts, forks, tyres, headset bearings, 1" threaded steerer (all bikes are 1 1/8" so replacement forks are almost impossible to find) bottom bracket bearing etc etc. As far as I can see, it's 100% Chinese made. The 905se is up there in cost with Swissbee, Giant and so on... aren't they made in China too?? As a bike, it was definitely inferior to my £200 mountain bike which doesn't lose spokes once a week or have a crunchy bottom bracket bearing which is non-standard....

 

[Ian]

I've no personal experience of Wisper bikes but the pictures I've seen do show cheap cycle parts, there was also a 905se on ebay recently, the large pictures clearly showing a cheap swaged crankset.

My Ezee Torq has decent cycle bits, Shimano Sora & Nexus, Tektro, Dia-Compe and Weinmann rims.

The Swizzbee is made in Switzerland, Giant in Taiwan, although the current Giant electrics are not highly regarded in many circles. The Kalhoff and Gazelle are European.

 

[jimmyengland1000]

Yes, I saw that one and a couple of others. Retail price is £1200 for one of those but the ones on eBay don't seem to be reaching their reserves, so it looks like they don't hold much secondhand value. How would you rate your ezee torq then? I'd like to give one a go if any better than my 905e

 

[flecc]

There is investment from Britain into Chinese E-bikes, Wisper being a notable example, since the Chinese company was bought by Wisper UK who own it outright.

E-bike prices are high, but the reason is simply the small size of the market here, making the costs of operating as an importer and agent disproportionate to the sales. I've been in this sort of position and know how much that affects prices. If we had several million e-bikes on the road, their prices would be extremely low, like the other mass selling items mentioned.

An example of limited market costs. A van with driver delivering a couple of bikes costs almost the same as a truck and driver delivering 200 bikes. With that transport cost spread across 200 bikes, it becomes negligible. Equally, staff are much better utilised when they have a constant high work flow.
.

 

[jimmyengland1000]

That's interesting re the purchase in China. Isn't there a Catch 22 type thing here then? Economies of scale and lots of sales reduces price with factories being more efficient, deliveries cost-effective etc. But, at the moment, the product cost is very high. This puts people off buying (well, me, at any rate), so sales are not what they could be and remain comparatively low... which means prices stay high, which puts off buyers, so prices stay high. eg plasma TV's... or cassette players in the 70's or whatever. They cost a bomb until people start buying them but, in the early stages, it's only wealthier people who can afford them and, eventually, drive down prices for the less well-off. Given climate change etc, it seems a shame that electric bikes are at this stage.

 

[flecc]

It is a indeed a catch 22 situation, a normal one in all emerging markets where a seller has to make the judgment on whether to make a large scale investment in mass supplies in the hope the product will catch the public imagination and sell in quantity, like Laptops, Wii, and Ipod.

That decision with e-bikes is quite easy in fact, since there have been very cheap e-bikes available for over 6 years now, yet no mass market has emerged.

That leaves little option but to adopt the low sales/high price business model if there's to be any pretence at service.
.

 

[Ian]

I think the majorty of e-bike purchases are by casual users at the bottom end of the price bracket with no intent of serious use, quality is unimportant to these users as the bike will only get a few rides before rusting away at the back of a shed, this "toy"market is about a close to a mass ebike market as we are likely to get and mass sales here will do little to bring down the price of higher quality products.

The fact of the matter is that the majority of people are not interested in using a bike, electric or otherwise, and of the minority that are only a small percentage would consider an electric bike. Most people would give up food before their car and and have no interest in cheaper or greener forms of transport, borne out to some extent by the fact that only 0.19% of the population voted for Sustrans in the lottery giveaway.

 

[jimmyengland1000]

Yes, I can see that and sympathise re low volumes/high prices (like Rolls Royces) but... it's high prices and low quality too in my experience (unlike Rolls Royces). On my Wisper 905e, I had to replace the forks (originals were awful and more decorative than anything else), the head bearings, the bottom bracket bearings (original broke up), the v-brake at the rear. I had to replace the front disk brake with a hydraulic one because the original was ineffective. I renewed both tyres after 50 miles as they were awful Chinese tyres, one of which developed a sidewall hernia after 50 miles. The wiring was a nightmare and the colour coding completely unintelligible (eg red on the battery connected to black on the controller and black on the battery to red on the controller). The rear wheel could not be removed for a tyre change without my sawing through loops on the frame that the power wire had been threaded through BEFORE soldering a large block connector on the end. The rear gearchanger was so imprecise that I had to replace it. The front mudguard cracked off because it was only held on by one bolt. The rear wheel spokes loosened every 10 miles or so. The bike had old fashioned tyre valves (not Schrader) so couldn't be inflated with a standadr airline. The forks were 1" and threaded, so almost impossible to replace. The sprung seat wobbled from side to side. The list went on

So, I'm not averse to paying a high price for something that is a high price because of low sales. I certainly am averse to paying a high price for a product that plainly and obviously isn't particularly high quality and yet is still high cost. And, looking at most of the e-bikes I've seen, they all suffer to some degree from this problem.

 

[flecc]

Quite true, and I've made similar observations myself. The problem is partly that nearly all e-bike manufacturers are not bike manufacturers and have very little clue about what constitutes a good bicycle.

That's why Giant got it right with the Lafree Twist series. As the world's largest bike manufacturer and engaged in competition, they knew what was wanted on the bike side, and coupling that knowledge with the good Panasonic motor unit was bound to produce a good result. With Gazelle and Kalkhoff now doing the same, they too are getting it right due to their cycle experience, in both cases choosing good components, not necessarily the best, but definitely working well as required.

A good example of that knowledge in action are the brakes on the Kalkhoff I've just reviewed. They are rock bottom basic Shimano items, and without a model name on them, but they work superbly in every respect, as good as any V brakes I've ever tried.

Meanwhile non-cycle companies like eZee and Wisper pay a little bit more for name branded brakes that haven't worked well at all in many cases, simply lacking the skills and knowledge of a long established bike company.

Regarding the Wisper 905e problems, that was the Knight Rider bike they inherited when they bought the company. The 905se is intended to answer all those problems, and they've gone to considerable lengths to try and get it right, asking for input from any knowledgeable people they can. I've no idea how successful they've been, but I do know they've made the effort, more than many Chinese manufacturers do, and they are putting the improvements on the 905e model as well.
.

 

[Ian]

Sorry to hear of all those problems but some, like the colour coding problem, while it doesn't make it excusable, are common on Chinese products, and others like the non-Shrader valve type, which will be a Presta, much favoured by serious cyclists and certainly not old fashioned, cannot really be called a problem. Likewise the 1" threaded steerer is very much a standard for utility and city bikes, also much used on road bikes and readily available from good shops such as this. Chinese tyres are not noted for being the best, although usually their deficiencies lie in handling and rolling resistance rather than durability.
It does sound like most of the other faults are down to poor quality components and this is disappointing at the price.

 

[jimmyengland1000]

Thanks I and Flecc. Maybe you could suggest a decent e-bike?? The upgraded Wisper bike costs £1200 + delivery and, looking at the pix, it still has the non-standard bottom bracket and what looks like a quill extender for the steering stem. Whilst 1" steerers might be standard for city bikes, the Wisper does kind ofpresent itself as a mountain bike...'sports' as they put it, so I would have expected A headset bearings, cartridge crank, shim type headset fitting and not threaded. My old 905e retailed at £850 last March and this upgraded one is therefore a LOT more expensive... 40% more and I'm not convinced it's 40% better, so I doubt I'll buy one. What I need is a bike with a crossbar (to take a child seat) which is light, with as high a range as possible but not necessarily huge loads of power. I live in Lincolnshire which is pretty flat, so I would value range more than torque. I need it to be pedallable in case the battery runs out. Do you have any suggestions?

 

[flecc]

Next Spring's Kalkhoff Pro connect fits that bill. Long range, light, easy pedalling without power, crossbar, low, moderate or slightly higher assistance to choice, and the same quality and power unit as the bike I just tested:

Pro Connect
.

 

[Ian]

Most of lincolnshire is ideal Ezee Torq country, and the Torq does have a threadless headset, but the forks are wider than standard to take the motor.

With care and some input from yourself a Torq should deliver well over 30 miles per charge in flat country, my personal best is 50 miles although that was an exception, my norm being about 35 miles. I would suggest you read through this forum for comments on the Torq, most people are happy but there have been a few dissatisfied owners, mostly in hilly country. There have been complaints about lithium battery life and performance, again mostly in hilly country, mine is NiMh and I have had no problems. The gearing is also rather high but the standard Shimano pattern chainring and cassette are easy to change as I have done. The new Torq Trekking has a wider gear range as standard, sus forks and slightly more power. Its now been around long enough to see a few on the secondhand market, budget for a new battery if buying used though.

 

[HarryB]

One problem with second hand torqs is that they are over-priced. Considering most Li-ion batteried Torqs will most likely need a new battery £700 to £800 seems a crazy price to pay and that is what they seem to go for on ebay. I suppose it shows how popular they are. To be honest it is pretty well put together - could always be improved and I have modified mine with gearing changes and improvements to the brakes.

 

[giguana]

I was lucky because there were three fairly new ones that went nearby for 150 on eBay, so I got one, I guess if you want a proper bike with your own choice of motor to you have to make it yourself to get half price. the electric components only costs about 450 pounds for a top range thing. Plus the bike.