Consumer Rights Act 2015

dinger19 · Sep 17, 2015

Will the new act apply if the dongle was fitted as an option by the supplying dealer.??

hoppy · Sep 17, 2015

shemozzle999 said:
Comes into force next month:

Certain rights are not applicable to motor vehicles so type approval bikes will be less protected.

New 30-day right to 'reject’.

EAPCs should not qualify as motor vehicles so for example you could make a qualified fault/repair return anytime within 6 months and expect a full refund without any deductions. It is down to the seller to prove any damage was caused by the user.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/about-us/how-citizens-advice-works/citizens-advice-consumer-work/the-consumer-rights-act-2015/

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/contents/enacted

An EAPC with a throttle does not become a motor vehiclebecause it requires type approval. It remains an EAPC.

flecc · Sep 17, 2015

hoppy said:
An EAPC with a throttle does not become a motor vehicle because it requires type approval. It remains an EAPC.

This is a DfT ruling for the UK, but the EU doesn't appear to say anything of the sort and the EU law has precedence.

So the true position with regard to other laws like this consumer legislation is unclear. The type approval process is for motor vehicles so any vehicle submitted and accepted for testing is thought to possibly be a motor vehicle. Once it's type approved according to EU and UK law, the Vehicle Inspectorate have effectively declared it is a motor vehicle.

So two departments of the DfT have created a conflict position that can only be sorted out by the lawyers should such a conflict arise.
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hoppy · Sep 17, 2015

flecc said:
This is a DfT ruling for the UK, but the EU doesn't appear to say anything of the sort and the EU law has precedence.

So the true position with regard to other laws like this consumer legislation is unclear. The type approval process is for motor vehicles so any vehicle submitted and accepted for testing is thought to possibly be a motor vehicle. Once it's type approved according to EU and UK law, the Vehicle Inspectorate have effectively declared it is a motor vehicle.

So two departments of the DfT have created a conflict position that can only be sorted out by the lawyers should such a conflict arise.
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I have a letter from the InternationalVehicleStandards Division of the DfT that states " If the electricbike has a throttle, but also meets the definition of a GB EAPC, then the cycle is not required to be registered, taxed or insured." Signed by DwightLobban, dated 25.8.15

flecc · Sep 17, 2015

hoppy said:
I have a letter from the InternationalVehicleStandards Division of the DfT that states " If the electricbike has a throttle, but also meets the definition of a GB EAPC, then the cycle is not required to be registered, taxed or insured." Signed by DwightLobban, dated 25.8.15

I'm aware of that letter, but it only specifies British conditions that the DfT expect. Note the use of GB EAPC rather than UK EAPC, qualifying the ruling to Great Britain alone, even excluding Northern Ireland.

It's neither the UK nor the EU law, both of which require power to cease when pedalling ceases (i.e. no independent throttle), so the DfT IVS ruling appears to amount to a waiver as far as enforcement is concerned.

If a conflict with another law such as the consumer regulations arises, it's only the law that counts in a court of law, so it's a matter for the lawyers to decide the status of the DfT ruling, as I posted.
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hoppy · Sep 17, 2015

shemozzle999 said:
Might be worth a follow up question to them regarding the motor vehicle exemptions in the new consumer laws, hopefully they can confirm one way or the other whether it would be classified as a motor vehicle in regard to them, either way you would have a written reference to the decision.

OK. I'll try!

jonathan75 · Sep 17, 2015

flecc said:
It's neither the UK nor the EU law, both of which require power to cease when pedalling ceases (i.e. no independent throttle), so the DfT IVS ruling appears to amount to a waiver as far as enforcement is concerned.

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I don't think the EU have competence over the definition of a motor vehicle,and less so for the purposes of this strictly UK piece of consumer legislation. Even if they did it would be limited and would give a 'margin of appreciation' to member states, and would specify minimum not maximum consumer protections. I think a UK judge would (and this is the question to ask) say that the reasonable expectations of the parties to the contract would be determinative.

I think the idea that a throttle bike isn't an EU EAPC because the law is silent on that is not quite right,and the directive is I think a manufacturing regime for markets,not a registration regime for governments- I think (though this is baffling) it doesn't bind government on safety laws, given the limited EU competence in transport (and the corresponding wide margin of appreciation).

However as this is a question of contract, I think it's not necessarily an issue of law (which is in too-short supply here in relation to the definition of a motor vehicle) ,but of the shared intentions of the parties, and what's reasonable for each to expect. That reasonable expectation could in turn be shaped by law,but it doesn't have to be.

If the Secretary of State (ie his staff) has any power to make rules and policies in this area, which I suspect he does even in the absence of empowering legislation, then those will prevail over a silent-because-vague and in any case perverse and asking-to-be-annulled EU law in the matter of determining what the rules here are about throttles.

jonathan75 · Sep 17, 2015

The government should really amend the legislation to define a motor vehicle.

flecc · Sep 17, 2015

jonathan75 said:
I think the idea that a throttle bike isn't an EU EAPC because the law is silent on that is not quite right,and the directive is I think a manufacturing regime for markets,not a registration regime for governments- I think (though this is baffling) it doesn't bind government on safety laws, given the limited EU competence in transport (and the corresponding wide margin of appreciation).

This I question Jonathan. The two and three wheel type approval law is an EU ruling enforced upon all member countries, and has been since 2003. Member variation requests to the EU Commission were restricted to the period 9th May 2003 to 9th November 2003. I don't see this as limited competence in specifying what a motor vehicle is in this respect, it seems very absolute to me.

That law has exemptions which include powered bicycles which comply to the EU pedelec regulations, having power ceasing when pedalling stops. All other cases require type approval as the DfT have correctly stated, but that type approval is an admission that the type approved powered bicycle is a motor vehicle since the type approval only applies to motor vehicles.

My objection in this area is that e-bikes were living for almost 12 years in a chaotic legal situation which the new EAPC revision was intended to sort out and did appear to do so. But with this ruling that a type approved throttle equipped electric assist bike is still an EAPC, we return to a situation not acccording with law. Any rider of such an e-bike taking the Eurostar or ferry to France could find this out the hard way, and we have had members doing exactly that.
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jonathan75 · Sep 18, 2015

flecc said:
This I question Jonathan. The two and three wheel type approval law is an EU ruling enforced upon all member countries, and has been since 2003. Member variation requests to the EU Commission were restricted to the period 9th May 2003 to 9th November 2003. I don't see this as limited competence in specifying what a motor vehicle is in this respect, it seems very absolute to me.

That law has exemptions which include powered bicycles which comply to the EU pedelec regulations, having power ceasing when pedalling stops. All other cases require type approval as the DfT have correctly stated, but that type approval is an admission that the type approved powered bicycle is a motor vehicle since the type approval only applies to motor vehicles.

My objection in this area is that e-bikes were living for almost 12 years in a chaotic legal situation which the new EAPC revision was intended to sort out and did appear to do so. But with this ruling that a type approved throttle equipped electric assist bike is still an EAPC, we return to a situation not acccording with law. Any rider of such an e-bike taking the Eurostar or ferry to France could find this out the hard way, and we have had members doing exactly that.
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Yes that's an interesting point about EU law.

Can you give a citation for the 2003 European legislation so I can have a look at it and check the law and its status? Are you sure it is clear about 250w throttle pedelecs, and leaves no margin of appreciation for member states to define them as powered bicycles?

Did people on this site really get into difficulties with the French authorities with 250w throttle bikes? If so, mightn't that say more about the freedom of the French to legislate in this area, than it being an EU rule?

anotherkiwi · Sep 18, 2015

I have never seen a throttle, thumb or otherwise, on a pedelec here. In shops or on the street. If a policeman here saw you riding your bike without pedalling and you weren't wearing a helmet (motorbike type) and it didn't have a number plate I am fairly certain that you would be pulled over and asked for the vehicules insurance certificate. Which you wouldn't have so you would probably be in very hot water and your wallet much lighter by the time he had finished with you...

flecc · Sep 18, 2015

jonathan75 said:
Yes that's an interesting point about EU law.

Can you give a citation for the 2003 European legislation so I can have a look at it and check the law and its status? Are you sure it is clear about 250w throttle pedelecs, and leaves no margin of appreciation for member states to define them as powered bicycles?

Did people on this site really get into difficulties with the French authorities with 250w throttle bikes? If so, mightn't that say more about the freedom of the French to legislate in this area, than it being an EU rule?

No, no-one got into trouble with the French authorities, I only illustrated that some members have toured their pedelecs in France, and indeed further, to illustrate the problem of taking a GB approved throttle controlled bike there. It's likely to happen to an unsuspecting e-biker unaware that the type approval EAPC legality doesn't extend into Mainland Europe. They don't even have EAPC law, theirs is EPAC law.

Here's the details on the legislation:

The original Type Approval legislation enforced on all member states is contained in 2002/24/EC. This was adopted into UK law on 10th November 2003. Article 1 states that this applies to all the relevant vehicles but specifies exceptions, including (h) which is specific about the exempted pedelec conditions.

Since then 2002/24/EC has been wholly incorporated into EU order 168/2013. In that the same exemption and detailing of what constitutes a pedelec is contanied in Article 2, section 2 (h).
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jonathan75 · Sep 18, 2015

flecc said:
No, no-one got into trouble with the French authorities, I only illustrated that some members have toured their pedelecs in France, and indeed further, to illustrate the problem of taking a GB approved throttle controlled bike there. It's likely to happen to an unsuspecting e-biker unaware that the type approval EAPC legality doesn't extend into Mainland Europe. They don't even have EAPC law, theirs is EPAC law.

Here's the details on the legislation:

The original Type Approval legislation enforced on all member states is contained in 2002/24/EC. This was adopted into UK law on 10th November 2003. Article 1 states that this applies to all the relevant vehicles but specifies exceptions, including (h) which is specific about the exempted pedelec conditions.

Since then 2002/24/EC has been wholly incorporated into EU order 168/2013. In that the same exemption and detailing of what constitutes a pedelec is contanied in Article 2, section 2 (h).
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I hear you. You're right the words in the earlier directive seem to read as you say.

However that aspect of the directive may not be compatible with art 26 of EUCFR, which requires institutions applying and creating EU law to do so with due regard and support for the independence of disabled persons. This has the same status as the Treaties and is higher law in the EU. I have submitted a request for the EU institutions to remedy this violation of the Charter.

In the meantime it seems the formal position of the EU is as you say.

However given the institutions (including the DfT) who must apply it, cannot, as it's Charter incompatible , and given EU law is only given effect by national courts, who are obligated to look at EU law as a whole, and given the DfT refuses to apply the provision, I don't think it has the status of law or will have it. Remember too that a directive isn't a law but a request to member states to make law. It isn't 'directly effective ' Judges can't apply it, it requires national authorities to interpret it and create legislation to achieve its aims. And it seems the interpretation of Parliament /the DfT is as the DfT letter claims -unless you can point out where UK law differs from the comfort letter.

flecc · Sep 18, 2015

jonathan75 said:
And it seems the interpretation of Parliament /the DfT is as the DfT letter claims -unless you can point out where UK law differs from the comfort letter.

No, the UK law does not differ, neither in the original 1983 EAPC regulation or the 2015 Amendments to that regulation.

However, in the DfT saying that a throttle equipped EAPC requires type approval because the EU requires that, they appear to be acknowledging the primacy of that EU regulation.

It's a strange and confusing situation in several ways:

1) They indicate EU compliance is achieved by insisting on type approval for a throttle controlled EAPC, yet their measure does not meet EU requirements for a bureacracy-free pedelec.

2) Nowhere in the UK regulations old or new is the use of a throttle prohibited, nor does old or amended UK law require power to cease when pedalling stops.

3) Given 1 and 2 above, why attempt an EU compliance when our regulations don't require it and that compliance does not meet EU requirements anyway? It seems to have no point.

4) Why does the letter only refer to GB, excluding Northern Ireland, when the EAPC regulation and amendment are UK measures.

5) Furthermore, no EU compliance seems to be necessary for an EAPC since the EU makes no mention of such a vehicle. Their regulations only speak of Pedelecs, aka EPACs. There is a fundamental difference, ours are Pedal Cycles which are electric assisted, theirs are Electric Cycles which are pedal assisted.
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flecc · Sep 18, 2015

Thanks Shemozzle, what a strange setup, since NI is included in the 1983 EAPC regulation, which I understand is UK law. It follows that the April and June 2015 amendments to that must be too. I would have expected the letter about throttle permission to have UK wide effect too and still don't understand the GB restriction in that.
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Consumer Rights Act 2015

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