Choices

[blackrat]

Hi,
I am new to the forum and this is my first post and its the typical which bike do I choose?

I have done my research on the internet, I've watched the YouTube videos and even had a couple of test rides and of course I have checked out the messages on this forum. What I'm after are, any thoughts you can give me on ownership of my top few choices. So, in no particular order, I have been voting and my choices are:-

Whisper 905 City
Powermotor A2B
Kalkhoff Sahel
Kalkhoff Agattu

My commute will be 11 miles each way for about 2 months and after that 5 miles each way for the next few years. I like the idea of assisted pedaling to help me get fit but I also like the design of the A2B and didn't find it that heavy to pedal on the flat, its a bit cheaper on Amazon. What do you think?

Blackrat

 

[Cyclezee]

Hi Blackrat,

I don't know your budget, but judging from your choices you might also want to consider an Ezee as they are in the same bracket.

J hn

 

[NRG]

As always the recommendation is to try before you buy, especially as you've chosen two different drive systems. Make the effort and visit 50cycles, spend the day and understand how each system works then you can narrow your choice down.

However, all of those bikes will easily make your commute even lower end bikes so ask yourself if you really need to spend that much or would a cheap bike do the same for far less cost and leave you with enough spare cash to maybe have a second as back up (as it's your commute to work) and to also factor in the clothing and lighting you will also need whatever bike you choose.....

My own choice would be a Panasonic drive bike, I'm a recent convert and I would also put on your list an E-Motion to try.....

 

[NRG]

....another option is to look at a hub powered bike with torque sensor, Dan did some research on them a while back:

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/1172-home-made-pedelec-pedal-torque-sensor.html#post62519

These are used on a number of bikes with varying degrees of success but the new Raleigh Velo bikes, reviewed in this months A to B magazine, gives them a very good write up....worth concidering.

 

[OTH]

What converted you to Panasonic drive bikes, NRG?

I want a bike that will help me up hills, but can be ridden without power on the flat. Do they fit that specification well?

 

[z0mb13e]

Hi Blackrat,

I ride the Whisper 905SE Sport on a daily commute and wouldn't hesitate in recommending one if it is within your budget. As others have stated you should try before you buy if possible.

You are in an enviable position of having found this forum before buying. I was not so lucky and spent months trawling the internet trying to piece things together from various dealer and manufacturers websites.

The only caveats to consider are replacement battery costs and availability of spares and service.

I have always looked after my own bikes and e-bikes aren't much more complicated for general maintenance so service wasn't an issue for me. Which was good as there aren't any dealers near by. The biggest problem I have faced is the availability of spares. They aren't hard to get hold of from Whisper (who are more than happy to help) but you will find that your local bike shop probably won't have spokes, brake pads and bottom brackets to fit (unless you are lucky enough to live near a dealer). This can be annoying when you need the bike back on the road asap and hence why I have a second cheaper e-bike on order for backup.

 

[NRG]

A number of things OTH and yes they fit that scenario well.

The ability to dictate your own speed on the flat or up hill and not be dictated too by the bike. Having the choice between high cadence and no assist or low cadence full assist now seems more intuitive than straining to maintain high cadence in a low gear to keep the hub motor above it's half speed point where it becomes very inefficient.

The much lower drag from the system when unpowered, hub motors are too much of a lottery in this respect, some can be low drag but many are a real strain on the legs. The Panasonic system is consistently easy to ride unassisted.

System efficiency, the Wh consumed is much less than nearly all hub powered bikes giving a greater range for the same battery capacity.

The integrated battery management system seems to be sorted with the ability to sleep after a period of inactivity and the new battery capacities at 18Ah will give superb touring range.

The low centre of gravity of the system without weight in the wheels improves handling and the all up weight on the whole seems generally lower.

There are some down sides with extra wear on chain and sprockets but this is outweighed by the benefits IMHO.

Bottom line is each to their own, my hub powered Peugeot is a very nice bike to ride it's just a different way to approach it and understanding the limitations.

 

[Ultra Motor]

Hi Blackrat,

The most important thing I'll echo is to try before you buy. Test them all and see which you prefer to ride and will fit your needs.

Good luck with your search

Mark

 

[overthehill]

a xmas wish

OTH
im looking for the same thing. My current bike is great on the flat and slight hills but beyond that its really a non runner for me and limits its usage. I enjoy putting in some pedaling but not at a very high rate for medical reasons and I love getting out and about. If I could get up the 1 in 4 hills around here under throttle alone and varied assistance for lesser hills it would open up a whole new world of possibilities. It would be great to know what bikes can meet my needs.

Spec folding frame for better storage as I stay in a flat
good hill climbing motor with throttle function
reasonable range of gears to enjoy the flat bits without assist
funds upto £1500
would even be willing to do a self build kit so long as its not to complicated.

 

[eddieo]

A number of things OTH and yes they fit that scenario well.

while I have had a quick couple of goes on a Panasonic and very impressed, I have not had a chance to hill climb yet.......Are they much better in this respect over a hub motor bike?

 

[flecc]

If I could get up the 1 in 4 hills around here under throttle alone and varied assistance for lesser hills it would open up a whole new world of possibilities. It would be great to know what bikes can meet my needs.

A 1 in 4 (25%) hill under motor power alone by throttle control is really out of the question within the constraints of the British/UK and EU laws. There just isn't enough power available to maintain enough speed for balance on a two wheeler.

For a typical 75 kilo rider on a typical 25 kilo e-bike, the net motor power required would be about 700 watts or at least 875 watts gross, but only if the system was designed to operate at maximum torque/power efficiency balance at 6 mph. In practice most e-bikes are designed with that point at near 9 mph. The Panasonic type systems can operate near the right efficiency point since they drive through the gears, but they don't have throttle only full power availability and don't have that anywhere near that order of gross power. They depend on an appreciable rider contribution into the pedals.
.

 

[flecc]

while I have had a quick couple of goes on a Panasonic and very impressed, I have not had a chance to hill climb yet.......Are they much better in this respect over a hub motor bike?

Depends on hill steepness. On the steepest hills they are the best and your contribution can be much less than with a hub motor working outside it's comfort area. This is at the cost of lowish climb speeds though.

On more gentle slopes with the hub motor bike in it's comfort zone it can outrun a Panasonic type for speed and ask the rider for less effort. In crude terms:

Eastern Counties, Leicestershire etc with gently rolling or mostly flat terrain, I'd buy a typical SB type hub motor, especially if I wanted the lazy life.

Those nasty Devon hills, Peak District, North and South Downs and other very hilly areas, I'd buy the Panasonic type, especially if I enjoyed the rider input side of cycling.

There's no absolute though, since personal preference with regard to the very different way they work is an important influence, hence try before buy.
.

 

[overthehill]

a xmas wish

flecc

thank you for your input. I reckon the perfect bike isnt possible but on a realistic level what do you reckon is the best option with minimal personal input. Assuming the required personal input is 100 is there a combination that could work at 50

 

[Grumpyoldgit]

There is some interesting info about hill climbing ability and the amount of torque generated on the powerpedals website. Home Page of Powerpedals electric bicycles.

 

[NRG]

Eddie, Flecc pretty much nailed it. Just to reiterate a hub motor ideally needs to be kept above it's half speed limit when climbing hills, that can also mean a large rider input just like the Panasonic unit. The upside is probably a higher speed....however, it's this dictation of speed by the system and not the rider that on the whole makes me lean towards the Panasonic system more than a hub one. Both have limitations and it comes down to preference in the end.

 

[overthehill]

a xmas wish

thanks grumpy

From the powerpedals site

At the same power (W), the Central Driven System gets higher torque than a hub motor. As you can see in chart A, the 200W central driven system motor performs better than a 350W hub motor, the torque of the 200W central driven system is equal to 500W hub motors,
Is this claim realistic or purely sales jargon

 

[flecc]

flecc

thank you for your input. I reckon the perfect bike isnt possible but on a realistic level what do you reckon is the best option with minimal personal input. Assuming the required personal input is 100 is there a combination that could work at 50

The high quality German Heinzmann kit would be best since they have high torque versions especially biased for hill climb ability, but it is a very expensive one, well over £1000 with the bike still to be provided. Front or rear wheel hub.

Some of the eZee models are the most powerful hub motor bikes available within the UK laws and they fall inside your price limit, but please try before buying even if it means travelling, since I don't know your weight and how they'd measure up to your need. I know I couldn't get an eZee Torq 1 up a 1 in 5 with a freshly charged battery, but that model had especially poor gearing for that task and I was quite old so the bike and I both cut out together!.
.

 

[OTH]

Thanks to all above for the interesting input.

....Those nasty Devon hills, Peak District, North and South Downs and other very hilly areas, I'd buy the Panasonic type, especially if I enjoyed the rider input side of cycling. ......

.

Can you expand on what you mean by enjoying the rider input side of cycling, please? I want to be able to ride as normally as possible, but have to limit the effort I put in on the hills.

To widen the discussion, if I may, how does the BionX system compare. (I ask because having local backup seems to be a very significant factor when choosing. And my local bike shop sells Treks - so there's a strong push to want to want one, if you see what I mean.)

I understand that try before you buy is very good advice. However, finding the right dealer near a suitable hill, etc, etc is not easy. So advice from those with extensive experience is helpful and much appreciated.

 

[flecc]

thanks grumpy

From the powerpedals site

At the same power (W), the Central Driven System gets higher torque than a hub motor. As you can see in chart A, the 200W central driven system motor performs better than a 350W hub motor, the torque of the 200W central driven system is equal to 500W hub motors,
Is this claim realistic or purely sales jargon

No, not false, it's the same benefit the Panasonic and all drive-through-the-gears systems have as I've shown above. Just like a car you change down for a hill and that makes the climb possible, but slower. Still not fully up to what you need though.
.

 

[flecc]

Can you expand on what you mean by enjoying the rider input side of cycling, please? I want to be able to ride as normally as possible, but have to limit the effort I put in on the hills.

The system requires a proportion of the effort required from the rider as measured by the pedal torque sensor. On current bikes that's selected by the rider. Eco mode asks for 2/3rds from the rider, Standard mode asks for half from the rider, High power mode asks for 1/3rd from the rider. Therefore by selecting standard for flat riding and High power for hills, you can even out the effort to a fair extent. Maximum power is mainly at lower pedal spin rates and up to about 10 mph, so trying to climb faster means far harder work. A fuller explanation here on my website.

To widen the discussion, if I may, how does the BionX system compare. (I ask because having local backup seems to be a very significant factor when choosing. And my local bike shop sells Treks - so there's a strong push to want to want one, if you see what I mean.)

The BionX is a good motor but direct drive, so no motor internal reduction gearing and not so good for steep hill climbing. Only the highest powered version any good for that but still not brilliant.

I understand that try before you buy is very good advice. However, finding the right dealer near a suitable hill, etc, etc is not easy. So advice from those with extensive experience is helpful and much appreciated.

If you can get to Onbike their shops, especially Presteigne branch, include some steep local hills and they have several brands.
.