Cheating on range claims-no honesty.

[Kudoscycles]

Names intentionally left out,to protect the guilty.
The Kudos team did a show on mainland Europe.
Opposite us was a stand of a big volume e-bike supplier. It looked like they had a massive range of bikes but in reality it was a step through frame not unlike my Kudos Liberty bike,with lots of different specs and colours.
Their mid range bike looked very similar in battery size,same SB motor,same 790 display,I suspect same controller amps to my bike...ie very similar bike.
They had a big bold notice that said '10Ah x36v battery=100kms range',in miles I think that is about 60 miles. I had a number of potential customers who asked what is the range of our bikes,the normal conversation-average terrain,average rider input,mid PAS setting,about 30-35 miles-that's not very good,those guys over there offer 60 miles.
It so happened that we were both staying in the same hotel.
I questioned how they were able to claim a range twice mine and yet the bikes were so similar-I got the technically superior,special design usual PR type answer,but they were adamant that their bike would cover 100 kms.
OK here's the bet....one of my guys is a keen off road cyclist and they had some fit guys on their stand. We would take same bike off each stand,set to mid PAS,same gearing and ride round the exhibition hall...if their bike covered twice the distance of a Kudos bike I would buy the beers for the rest of the week,but if it failed to do so they would buy the beers for the rest of the week.
No sense of fair play these europeans,they told me to go away(well I think thats what they said in Dutch!)...These range claims are in most instances complete rubbish,obviously if you put Bradley Wiggins on an e-bike and turn the power off you could do 500 kms on one charge! We could do with some reference standard to be able to compare these claimed ranges.
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[Scimitar]

We're seeing the same bulls hite that was spouted by the car industry decades ago, before regulation was imposed. Is it any wonder I despise the type of sales person who flits from one easy picking, up-and-coming sales job to another, with no integrity, no honesty, nothing in the way of morals? Foot-in-the-door merchants, most of them.

 

[Old_Dave]

Hi Dave

If you can't beat them then up the game. Make your own new set of figures.. Economy Run & Urban Cycle (pun intended)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[banbury frank]

Hi We beat you all we claim a range off 1,000 miles

one condition You leave the Battery At home

Frank

 

[flecc]

Of course one problem with the Dutch measures is that in their very flat country many long rides on a single charge are practical in Eco mode, and that can increase range by a substantial amount.

The alternative of using super fit cyclists can also work wonders. When Kalkhoff first launched their e-bikes they had a trio of super fit cyclists cover 100 km on a track using their Panasonic powered bikes, fitted with the even smaller 26 volt 10 Ah battery, 28% smaller capacity than yours Dave.

It is more possible with the crank drive units which insist on a fair proportion of rider assistance, and this was illustrated in this forum by member Fecn. An owner of three family Kalkhoff Agattus, he went on a long ride with a very fit cyclist friend, both on the Agattu bikes with that battery in each. The trip was from Warlingham to Eastbourne and then back on a loop route, totalling 62 miles. Fecn couldn't get anywhere near that on the one battery, but his friend completed the 62 mile trip with his battery still showing one LED of healthy drive charge. Of course on those bikes it is possible to ride with the power switched off at the handlebar on the easy stretches and with the Eco mode available at other times.

Using similar methods I showed that I could get 52 miles from that Agattu battery, but with the power off at the easier parts of the ride it isn't in truth all e-biking. My range was 35 miles on that bike when using it normally, and I know that most get around 30 miles or a little more.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

You shoul've put abig sign up that said " Our bikes do 150 mph (240kph)".

If anybody challenged you, you could tell them to chuck one off a cliff and watch it go.

 

[Kudoscycles]

You shoul've put abig sign up that said " Our bikes do 150 mph (240kph)".

If anybody challenged you, you could tell them to chuck one off a cliff and watch it go.

Careful...you will be giving Eddie ideas !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[dmcgoldrick]

Names intentionally left out,to protect the guilty.
The Kudos team did a show on mainland Europe.
Opposite us was a stand of a big volume e-bike supplier. It looked like they had a massive range of bikes but in reality it was a step through frame not unlike my Kudos Liberty bike,with lots of different specs and colours.
Their mid range bike looked very similar in battery size,same SB motor,same 790 display,I suspect same controller amps to my bike...ie very similar bike.
They had a big bold notice that said '10Ah x36v battery=100kms range',in miles I think that is about 60 miles. I had a number of potential customers who asked what is the range of our bikes,the normal conversation-average terrain,average rider input,mid PAS setting,about 30-35 miles-that's not very good,those guys over there offer 60 miles.
It so happened that we were both staying in the same hotel.
I questioned how they were able to claim a range twice mine and yet the bikes were so similar-I got the technically superior,special design usual PR type answer,but they were adamant that their bike would cover 100 kms.
OK here's the bet....one of my guys is a keen off road cyclist and they had some fit guys on their stand. We would take same bike off each stand,set to mid PAS,same gearing and ride round the exhibition hall...if their bike covered twice the distance of a Kudos bike I would buy the beers for the rest of the week,but if it failed to do so they would buy the beers for the rest of the week.
No sense of fair play these europeans,they told me to go away(well I think thats what they said in Dutch!)...These range claims are in most instances complete rubbish,obviously if you put Bradley Wiggins on an e-bike and turn the power off you could do 500 kms on one charge! We could do with some reference standard to be able to compare these claimed ranges.
Dave
Kudoscycles

'real use' battery performance is probably one of the biggest disappointments for ebikers. range, non linear depletion of power and replacement costs coupled with high maintenance requirements especially through the winter period, do come as an unpleasant surprise once the initial excitement of the new bike has passed...........

 

[oigoi]

Why is the EU able to devote considerable time / effort to regulating the max power of an ebike at a miserly amount, without considering a consistent standard for measuring range? there should be a standard test method to cut the BS out.

 

[jazper53]

No sense of fair play these europeans,they told me to go away(well I think thats what they said in Dutch!)...These range claims are in most instances complete rubbish,obviously if you put Bradley Wiggins on an e-bike and turn the power off you could do 500 kms on one charge! We could do with some reference standard to be able to compare these claimed ranges.
Dave
Kudoscycles

maybe they were working in double dutch kilometers

 

[RobF]

Kudos Dave said the maker making the extravagant claims was Dutch and I think that's the key.

The Gazelle I tested was a beautifully made bike, but - even on highest setting - it wouldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding.

Any battery offering such a weedy amount of assistance will last a long time.

 

[Jeremy]

Any manufacturer or vendor who makes any ebike range claim is just setting themselves up for a pratfall. Range is so massively dependent on terrain, rider weight, rider pedal input , wind speed and direction and even air temperature, as to be a completely meaningless parameter.

For example, I could get anything from less than 15 miles to more than 35 miles range from a battery with a usable capacity of around 350Wh, on the same bike, with the same rider.

Similarly, introducing standardised range testing is unlikely to do anything other than increase manufacturing costs. Look at cars. We have a standardised set of mpg tests, which bear as much resemblance to real life driving as Winnie the Pooh has to the Prime Minister. My car has an advertised MPG of 76. Despite the fact that I'm a frugal sort of individual, who tries pretty hard to get the best from the car, I've never, ever, got more than 68 MPG. I have no doubt that ebike range data would be similarly useless in practice.

What I would like to see is some standardised Wh per mile tests, both on the level and at a set weight on a gradient, as that would give a pretty good way of comparing real efficiency. Potential customers could then look at the efficiency figures, look at the battery capacity and determine for themselves which ebike best suits their needs.

 

[Jimod]

Mr Kudos, I have an offer for you which will find out the range of a Kudos. Fly me to Holland and give me a bike. I'll try it on the flat land they have there.

My own Kudos does over 30 miles on a battery up here in the hills with me on power level 5 all the time and letting the bike do the work on the flat bits. I reckon I'd get a lot more in Holland.

The above offer is made in jest, unless of course, you're thinking of taking me up on it.

 

[flash]

You can claim what you want, if there are no industry standards to substantiate your claim. However when it doesn't do what it says on the tin, the consumer isn't going to come back or recommend you to others.

On an aside I used to have a mate who had painted on his van "Ray ***** second best roofer in the world. All work guaranteed for 200 years". When I asked him the obvious question who is the best roofer in the world? He replied well actually I am, but I am to modest to admit it, and when I asked him about the guarantee. He answered If you're there to claim it I'll be there to fix it!

So perhaps Kudos could follow Ray's strategy and claim to be the second best Ebikes in the world.

 

[dmcgoldrick]

Mr Kudos, I have an offer for you which will find out the range of a Kudos. Fly me to Holland and give me a bike. I'll try it on the flat land they have there.

My own Kudos does over 30 miles on a battery up here in the hills with me on power level 5 all the time and letting the bike do the work on the flat bits. I reckon I'd get a lot more in Holland.

The above offer is made in jest, unless of course, you're thinking of taking me up on it.

hi jimod, isnt falkirk in the 'flatlands' of the central belt ????.......you can travel on the level all the way to edinburgh on the canal towpath from there.....just like a bike ride in holland !!!!!!!!

regards from the highland line.........

 

[mike killay]

This is the problem of not having throttles.
I tested my bike on throttle only and got 17 miles without pedalling at all along the flat and running flat out at 15mph, both ways to compensate for the light wind.
I used a 36 volt, 10 a/h battery that was just over a year old.
If this Dutch bike is a hub motor with a pedelec ring, challenge them to take the chain off, push start and pedal empty air. The bike will run until the battery is flat. Bet you don't get 20 miles.

 

[Jimod]

hi jimod, isnt falkirk in the 'flatlands' of the central belt ????.......you can travel on the level all the way to edinburgh on the canal towpath from there.....just like a bike ride in holland !!!!!!!!

regards from the highland line.........

Falkirk is a couple of hundred feet bellow me and I can indeed go down there and cycle all the way to Edinburgh along the towpath. I prefer to live and play up here in the hills though, hence the electric bike. It also means I'll never get flooded out like parts of Britain have been suffering.

My bike does over 30 miles on a battery playing up here. I reckon Holland or even the towpath to Edinburgh would see me do a lot more even on power level 5.

 

[morphix]

Why is the EU able to devote considerable time / effort to regulating the max power of an ebike at a miserly amount, without considering a consistent standard for measuring range? there should be a standard test method to cut the BS out.

Yeah it shouldn't be difficult really for a manufacturer to put a bike up on rig, leave the motor running with some adjustments to compensate for lack of traction.. and just monitor battery life and distance until it runs flat, do it every model they sell, rather than make guestimates from thin air.

 

[jerrysimon]

wouldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding.

That made me smile

Jerry

 

[flecc]

Yeah it shouldn't be difficult really for a manufacturer to put a bike up on rig, leave the motor running with some adjustments to compensate for lack of traction.. and just monitor battery life and distance until it runs flat, do it every model they sell, rather than make guestimates from thin air.

But still not practical, for many reasons.

It's easy with motor vehicles, especially cars, since they only have the one power source and the engine, driver weight etc makes only a small difference and hills don't make too big a difference for more than one reason.

In contrast e-bike riders are all a multiple of their bike's weight and variable as much as 2 to 1 or even more, so that can introduce a huge variation in a hilly area. Worse still, unlike motor vehicles their very low motor power is very greatly affected by the incidence of hills and climb gradients. And then there's the factor of rider contribution which varies by as much as 3 to 1.

All these make any figure no matter how obtained extremely unreliable. Quite simply, e-bikes do not have a range that can be quoted unless all the above are taken into account in each individual case and calculated for.

Just doing an off-load motor running duration test is meaningless. The nearest we could get to anything useful would be a three example set of figures, 1) a very fit and light rider in a flat area; 2) an averagely fit average weight rider in a mixed area; 3) a very heavy rider in a very hilly area. That would give three very different figures from best to worst with which a customer could work out what fitted their circumstance.

To illustrate the point, here's two examples of actual range variations of different riders using the same bike model and battery size in each case:

Kalkhoff Agattu: 22 miles, 62 miles.

eZee Torq 1: 11 miles, 45 miles.

You can see the variations, 1 to 3 and 1 to 4 respectively, nothing quoted could be an accurate guide to suit the rider ability and situation variances in these examples.