Charity Ride, electric bikes invited?

[Martin@e-bikeshop]

Hi guys,

I was speaking with a chap yesterday organising a charity ride to raise money for a charity that supports neuromuscular diseases.

I mentioned the fact that electric bikes could help with people in this situation, and maybe the idea of getting a bunch of ebike riders together to support the charity.

This is what he said -

Working for a charity that supports people with neuromuscular diseases means that I know several who appreciate the benefits of electrically assisted bikes; indeed a recent article in a Muscular Dystrophy magazine tells the story (page 18) of a young lad with Duchenne MD who is able to continue his passion for cycling with an electric bike made specifically for children (Isla Bikes). So I'm sure that this is a niche that is going to grow in many different aspects (ageing, health-conscious population).


For last year's GSD Giant Sportive I did try to encourage eBikes onto the GSD Giant (mentioned in the Petersfield Post), but I didn't manage to get anyone to register. However, given the focus of the charity and the increased interest and availability of bikes, I think I will make changes to my website and actively promote the idea of a separate eBike Class.

I wondered if anyone would be interested in the ride on their ebikes?

This is the link to the event - Gentle South Downs Giant | A giant ride through the gently undulating lanes of the South Downs Goodwood, West Sussex, August 10th 2013

Regards
Martin

 

[AllanMuir]

Hi there, I am the chap who discussed electric bikes on the GSD Giant with Martin. I'd be very interested in your views about the demand for a Pedelec Class on our charity Sportive. Also whether there are any specific requirements that we would need to consider (e.g. charging stations).

Allan

 

[amigafan2003]

I wouldn't worry about charging stations - most ebikers know how to manage assist vs range - and you can still peddle an ebike after the battery dies.

 

[GaRRy]

I wouldn't worry about charging stations - most ebikers know how to manage assist vs range - and you can still peddle an ebike after the battery dies.

Have you seen the length of the route ? The shortest is 40 mile, longest is 110. Now im sure a few could manage the 40 with careful battery mangement but doubt many can get more than 60. So do you fancy cycling unassisted on a heavy ebike the other 50 + ?. To be a success I reckon charging stations about every 10 miles (20 to first one) would be needed to make this viable for all but he fitest amongst us. Not that people would need to charge up every 10 miles but it would allow them to decide best points to charge. eg do 30 miles, quick top up. Do another 10, stop for lunch and full top up, do another 20 etc etc. Other than that cant see what a ebike would need that you would not have to provide for all entrants.

 

[flecc]

The Ching* Challenge electric ride in the Somerset area about three years ago was over about 110 miles. That used support vans and multiple batteries for a variety of e-bike makes, mostly three batteries needed per bike I think. Not everyone completed the route due to either running out of time or the odd breakdown. So I think a ride of that distance isn't really e-bike territory, though forty miles should be for some models. The very limited amounts of charge that can be taken up during brief top-ups isn't going to change that much, so I don't think charging stations will be very useful.

* Wai Won Ching, chief executive of eZee Kinetics, electric bike manufacturers.

 

[amigafan2003]

Have you seen the length of the route ? The shortest is 40 mile, longest is 110. Now im sure a few could manage the 40 with careful battery mangement but doubt many can get more than 60. So do you fancy cycling unassisted on a heavy ebike the other 50 + ?. To be a success I reckon charging stations about every 10 miles (20 to first one) would be needed to make this viable for all but he fitest amongst us. Not that people would need to charge up every 10 miles but it would allow them to decide best points to charge. eg do 30 miles, quick top up. Do another 10, stop for lunch and full top up, do another 20 etc etc. Other than that cant see what a ebike would need that you would not have to provide for all entrants.

So don't do the ride on:-

A: A heavy ebike that you can't peddle
or
B: or an ebike with not enough range.

Charging during an event isn't an option - especially as most ebikes take 6-8hrs to charge ;-) Even my high amp charger takes 90 mins to fully charge my bike.

 

[Martin@e-bikeshop]

Yeah I think you would only participate if you knew you had the range!
I know a lot of the Chinese bikes will only do 15-30 miles on a charge.

But anyone one a German, Panasonic/Bosch crank drive could easily do that.
We have been 50 miles on high assist before.
In fact I have heard of people doing 150 miles on Eco mode using the Bosch stuff.

This ride then becomes an option.

Martin

 

[dmcgoldrick]

just an educated guess at range in very general terms...... (but based on riding hub drive ebikes).........
bike plus rider 100kg......
average watt per mile for average cyclist ...10...
battery size 15ah 36 v system gives approx 540 watt............so thats 54 miles
.....add in a few extra steep hills and touch of headwind....... 40 miles........

not sure how much heavier load reduces distance, or indeed lighter load increases as all depends on rider
but that will give you a good basis to work out your range........if you know your watt usage then it should be straightforward for a battery in good condition......


re 150 miles from 18ah battery 36 v system for example would be only 4.32 watt per mile.......must be downhill all the way.........

regards

 

[GaRRy]

So don't do the ride on:-

A: A heavy ebike that you can't peddle
or
B: or an ebike with not enough range.

Charging during an event isn't an option - especially as most ebikes take 6-8hrs to charge ;-) Even my high amp charger takes 90 mins to fully charge my bike.

And what super expensive exotic bike would this be. Even most of the good ebikes weigh in at 19-20 kilos and most of those to get so low have 9 ah batteries which kind of goes against option B.

Im trying to think of ways for as many ebikers as possible to take part not just those with exotic toys and those who dont "need" a ebike. I still say charging points every 10 miles near a cafe or pub to allow for comfort breaks would be a good idea.

or another one but requiring a bit more logistics. Still have charge points every 10 miles but each rider has 2 batteries. First one in bike and asks for second to be dropped of at charge point 1, 2 or however far they feel they can sensibly get. Then when gets there swaps battery and asks for spare to be taken (with charger) to next charge point he feels will get to. It is then transported there (couple of vehicles acting like bus's between charge points could probably do this) and set up to charge so will be pretty well charged when arrive (assuming at least 2 hours or so cycling to next point).

Of course the other issue would be tha bank of 13 amp socket extensuion leads required for chargers but even these could be hoped further up the route when no longer required further back

 

[timidtom]

Good morning: J has done two 40k charity rides, one for GOES and the other for Gladstone's Library. She was using a 37v 10a battery which coped easily with gently undulating Cheshire countryside. She came home about half-way down the field of 800+ riders. Hope this helps and encourages others to ebike for charity!
I'm not supposed to say this but (whispers) J is 70+.
Best wishes,
Tom

 

[Martin@e-bikeshop]

re 150 miles from 18ah battery 36 v system for example would be only 4.32 watt per mile.......must be downhill all the way.........

regards

Yes that calculation is correct for the many hub drive bikes around, but it depends how efficiently the power is applied also.

For example a 400wh (roughly 11ah) Bosch battery on a crank drive motor can perform this sort of mileage. Here is a graph to determine range on each mode.



Ok this graph is in km but I have had people in store that have gone up to 150 miles on a charge. This graph shows on average conditions that you should do roughly 110 miles on eco mode.

Obviously there are many factors that affect range. But it is defiantly possible!

I have actually ridden 30 miles flat out on full assistance over some of the toughest hills in Hampshire on a sponsored ride last year. I completed the ride and came back only dropping 1/3 of battery. I could have gone round again if not twice, if I had the energy

Regards
Martin

 

[Martin@e-bikeshop]

or another one but requiring a bit more logistics. Still have charge points every 10 miles but each rider has 2 batteries. First one in bike and asks for second to be dropped of at charge point 1, 2 or however far they feel they can sensibly get. Then when gets there swaps battery and asks for spare to be taken (with charger) to next charge point he feels will get to. It is then transported there (couple of vehicles acting like bus's between charge points could probably do this) and set up to charge so will be pretty well charged when arrive (assuming at least 2 hours or so cycling to next point).

Of course the other issue would be tha bank of 13 amp socket extensuion leads required for chargers but even these could be hoped further up the route when no longer required further back

Garry,

I think a support team would be in hand. It may turn into formula 1 before we know it!
I can see battery changes being turned into seconds.. In, out, no messing about!
Lets hope it doesn't become political

But in all seriousness this would have to be planned well for the guys who don't have the full rage to cover the ride.

Regards
Martin

 

[AllanMuir]

Thanks for all your advice - a very useful discussion. Clearly I'm not going to attract a high number of ebikes this year, but it would be useful to have a variety of models try out the routes (100m, 76m and 44m) to see what we could recommend for future years.

The current route is very hilly/undulating and could deplete batteries quite quickly on some models.

 

[flecc]

If someone gets 150 miles from a 400 Wh battery, they are not in practice riding an e-bike, they are cycling virtually unpowered. The consumption of under 2.7 Wh per mile barely overcomes the additional weight of an e-bike in average territory, so they might as well ride a good light unpowered bike.

The average consumption for reasonably fit e-bikers with moderate power systems has been shown time and time again to be about 12 Wh per mile, and a fit rider's low figure from the most efficient crank drive in easy territory at about 8 Wh per mile.

 

[103Alex1]

I thought about doing the London-Brighton off-roader on my Trek before converting it... even with my 20Ah battery (let alone any other considerations) I reckon I'd be pedalling a hefty beast the final 30 miles unless there was someone with a spare ready to do me a dirty swap in a pub half way there .

 

[dmcgoldrick]

Yes that calculation is correct for the many hub drive bikes around, but it depends how efficiently the power is applied also.

For example a 400wh (roughly 11ah) Bosch battery on a crank drive motor can perform this sort of mileage. Here is a graph to determine range on each mode.

View attachment 5264

Ok this graph is in km but I have had people in store that have gone up to 150 miles on a charge. This graph shows on average conditions that you should do roughly 110 miles on eco mode.

Obviously there are many factors that affect range. But it is defiantly possible!

I have actually ridden 30 miles flat out on full assistance over some of the toughest hills in Hampshire on a sponsored ride last year. I completed the ride and came back only dropping 1/3 of battery. I could have gone round again if not twice, if I had the energy

Regards
Martin

hi martin, love your graph....gave me a good laugh.....great marketing but not realistic in hilly terrain...the maths and science just dont add up.......
regards

 

[RobF]

Thanks for all your advice - a very useful discussion. Clearly I'm not going to attract a high number of ebikes this year, but it would be useful to have a variety of models try out the routes (100m, 76m and 44m) to see what we could recommend for future years.

The current route is very hilly/undulating and could deplete batteries quite quickly on some models.

Allan,

I think it's great you are trying to integrate ebikes into a mainstream cycling event.

But have you considered what the other riders will think?

Some of the carbon-riding roadies are notoriously snobbish and are known for taking themselves way too seriously.

I can foresee some small-minded nastiness breaking out if one roadie thinks another's time has been improved by drafting behind an ebike.

An ebike is against the Sportive rules, it would be worth checking if ebikes in the field mean the times for the push-bike riders are deemed 'unofficial' for that reason.

 

[SRS]

Yes that calculation is correct for the many hub drive bikes around, but it depends how efficiently the power is applied also.

For example a 400wh (roughly 11ah) Bosch battery on a crank drive motor can perform this sort of mileage. Here is a graph to determine range on each mode.

View attachment 5264

Ok this graph is in km but I have had people in store that have gone up to 150 miles on a charge. This graph shows on average conditions that you should do roughly 110 miles on eco mode.

Obviously there are many factors that affect range. But it is defiantly possible!

I have actually ridden 30 miles flat out on full assistance over some of the toughest hills in Hampshire on a sponsored ride last year. I completed the ride and came back only dropping 1/3 of battery. I could have gone round again if not twice, if I had the energy

Regards
Martin

Martin, 30 mile toughest route, 1/3 of the battery 400wh. I find that impossible to believe.

I challenge you to a 30 mile ride on the South Downs, maximum assistance on a tough route. I'll ride with you.

If you can get to the end of the ride having used only 1/3 of the battery, I'll give you £50.00 and post your success on this forum.

You have my email address, I'll await your challenge.

 

[Martin@e-bikeshop]

Ian,

We were riding the ups and downs race last year, it was a lot of hills including butser hill etc.
Mind you where there's up hill there's downhill!
I was using a panasonic system, 700c wheel and a 12ah battery..

Although looking back I wonder if we were past the cut off half the time as we were racing with the 'Boys in lycra' the whole time! We were hammering it the whole way.

I should do it again this year and use the Bosch. And maybe try and keep within the 15mph cut off.. See what the range is then.

On a side note did you get my message today?

Regards
Martin

 

[AllanMuir]

Sportives are not races (officially) and so all results are given in alphabetical order and cannot be sorted easily. Each rider is really trying to improve his personal best and for that reason cyclists return year-on-year. However people do try to find out where they are placed and for that reason we would suffix the rider's name with an (e) to indicate that they were in the eBike Class.

I must admit that my original motivation for encouraging eBikes was to allow more of our charity supporters to join the event either with friends or family who would be using it as a focus for fundraising. However if it was to become a fixture in the eBike calendar then I admit that we would need to take care how we market it to non-assisted cyclists.

In practice the elite cyclists will be sent off first and probably wouldn't notice the eBikes, most of whom would start perhaps an hour later.