Careers vengeance hard work pedalling!

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,845
5,786
The European Union
Thanks for the reply Neal but iv taken the battery off and tried to ride it and its defo mechanical drag from the hub.if I get up to say 15mph without battery it freewheels fine.but as soon as I start to pedal it feels like the brakes are on.it really is that bad..
I think it is either/or:

- a psychological effect
- motor needs running in for about 100 km
- clutch stuck in engaged position (you would hear the noise)

Your bike will freewheel fine because it is heavy and we have all (hub motor riders) been through the learning stage where we have felt to lesser or greater degree what you are feeling. Motor drag is about 3-5%, extra weight increases rolling resistance when you start to pedal.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,200
30,603
I weigh 97 kg at the moment.iv taken battery off and tried riding but its really tough going and the resistance is defo from rear hub.
If only you could see the many hundreds of times a member with their first hub motor e-bike has posted the same during the 12 years of this forum.

I repeat, if it spins freely by hand, it's not the motor, and it's a mechanical impossibility for pedalling to cause the motor to start dragging.

Hub motor bikes are often tough to pedal without power, and when using power and rising above the motor cut-off speed, the sudden sensation of drag when the power stops can feel like hitting a brick wall.
.
 
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gray198

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 4, 2012
1,592
1,069
Hi everyone.I've just joined today after buying a halfords vengeance.the motor is fantastic but its extremely hard to pedal as a normal bike.there is a noticeable resistance from the hub.As I've only just bought it 3 days ago can anyone advise me.Thanks
Hi Rick I know just what you mean. As other posts on here state a lot of the treacle/drag feel is down to the extra weight of the hub and battery. I have a Freego Eagle for 6 yrs and found exactly the problems you state. I have just changed to an Oxygen S Cross and am now able to ride much more without power. I don't know the bike you have or whether you may be able to change it but worth a thought. The problem for me with the Eagle was that because of the difficulty of riding without power it made me a bit lazy and I almost always used it.Good luck with your riding.
 

Rick Oshea

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jul 27, 2018
22
5
If only you could see the many hundreds of times a member with their first hub motor e-bike has posted the same during the 12 years of this forum.

I repeat, if it spins freely by hand, it's not the motor, and it's a mechanical impossibility for pedalling to cause the motor to start dragging.

Hub motor bikes are often tough to pedal without power, and when using power and rising above the motor cut-off speed, the sudden sensation of drag when the power stops can feel like hitting a brick wall.
.
Hi Rick I know just what you mean. As other posts on here state a lot of the treacle/drag feel is down to the extra weight of the hub and battery. I have a Freego Eagle for 6 yrs and found exactly the problems you state. I have just changed to an Oxygen S Cross and am now able to ride much more without power. I don't know the bike you have or whether you may be able to change it but worth a thought. The problem for me with the Eagle was that because of the difficulty of riding without power it made me a bit lazy and I almost always used it.Good luck with your riding.
 

Rick Oshea

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jul 27, 2018
22
5
I think it is either/or:

- a psychological effect
- motor needs running in for about 100 km
- clutch stuck in engaged position (you would hear the noise)

Your bike will freewheel fine because it is heavy and we have all (hub motor riders) been through the learning stage where we have felt to lesser or greater degree what you are feeling. Motor drag is about 3-5%, extra weight increases rolling resistance when you start to pedal.
Thanks for your input.A lot of members are also saying it needs to have some miles on it and hopefully it will get easier.otherwise I'll have legs like Arnie Schwarzanegga!!!!!
 
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Muddy

Pedelecer
Jul 22, 2018
67
20
I thought the same, couldn’t believe it was just drag and extra weight but seems to be
I’ve got a Bigfoot with big tyres and the drag is just horrendous without assistance, I thought the brakes were stuck on
Level 1power just makes it disappear
 
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Rick Oshea

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jul 27, 2018
22
5
You can post the first half of your post code in this linked thread Rick and I'll enter you into the pedelecs members map. Then you'll see any others around you who've done the same.
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Tried following your link but got too techy for me.my post code starts BS23.I'm not good with technology as I'm the wrong side of 50!!think I'll just post a general message tomorrow asking is there anybody near me?thanks again for all your help.
 

Rick Oshea

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jul 27, 2018
22
5
I thought the same, couldn’t believe it was just drag and extra weight but seems to be
I’ve got a Bigfoot with big tyres and the drag is just horrendous without assistance, I thought the brakes were stuck on
Level 1power just makes it disappear
Thanks Muddy.hope it just gets easier or il have to change my tag to Thunderthighs!!!!!
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,200
30,603
Tried following your link but got too techy for me.my post code starts BS23.I'm not good with technology as I'm the wrong side of 50!!think I'll just post a general message tomorrow asking is there anybody near me?thanks again for all your help.
Not techy Rick, all you had to do was click that highlighted link and then post BS23 in that thread. Fiftyish is no excuse, I'm 82. :)

Anyway I've entered you in the map now and if you click on Map Link you'll see you are riding on Quantock Road. Click on your bike symbol and you'll see your name there and it entered again in the left hand column.

Scrolling on the map makes it expand or contract. Make it contract and you'll see a large cluster of members to the north-east but not very close I'm afraid. They're mainly around Keynsham, not in Weston-Super-Mare. Click on each to see the their member names.
.
 
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MikeS

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 29, 2018
299
73
74
Hi everyone.I've just joined today after buying a halfords vengeance.the motor is fantastic but its extremely hard to pedal as a normal bike.there is a noticeable resistance from the hub.As I've only just bought it 3 days ago can anyone advise me.Thanks
Rick - this is a problem with your bike. Please don't accept what all the responders are telling you who have NOT ridden a Carrerra Crossfire or Vulcan which has this problem. Who knows what it is - Halfords claim they don't , but they replaced my Crossfire (with a Crossfuse) two weeks after I bought it as it had a worsening problem. Fortunately it had been misbehaving when I passed a Halfords and when one of their guys tried riding it with the power off his words were 'I am an athlete and there's no way I could ride that bike more than a few hundred meters'
Rick - your problem is very real and there are at least two other threads on a similar theme, and in each case the guy is told it's his imagination. It's not. There is a problem with SOME Suntour HESC systems that Halfords are using in their ebikes. The Crossfuse uses a Bosch system, so just tell them you want to pay the extra and swap the Vulcan for a Crossfuse.
Mike
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,200
30,603
The Crossfuse uses a Bosch system, so just tell them you want to pay the extra and swap the Vulcan for a Crossfuse.
That rather confuses the issue since it's changing from a hub motor to a crank drive motor. The latter do tend to be easier to pedal, less inertia to start with.

Certainly my Panasonic crank drive Giant Lafree was a pleasure to ride without power and I often did. Very different from either of my two hub motor bikes which I never attempted to ride that way, too much like hard work.
.
 

MikeS

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 29, 2018
299
73
74
I'm sorry if my post is confusing the issue, because it needs to be emphasised that SOME of these Suntour HESC hub bikes have a serious problem. My Carrera Crossfire ebike was sometimes great and a pleasure to ride with the power switched off. Sometimes it was dreadful. As when pedalling round a perfectly flat Halfords car park where neither me nor the Halfords techie could pedal it at much more than 8 or 9 mph.
When my Crossfire (hub motor) was behaving itself it was actually easier tp pedal (power off) than the Bosch Crank drive Crossfuse. However the Crossfuse is consistently OK-ish to pedal power-off and has the added advantage that it doesn't seem to suffer from the separate Suntour problem of the battery or system regularly needing to be rebooted.
From Rick's description of his Vengeance's symptoms I am certain he has got a problem bike. (I met another Vengeance owner at Kielder who said he had the same problem and traced it to a broken sensor at the crank - reckoned he'd fixed it with a tie wrap and hadn't had the 'treacle' problem since)
Mike
 
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MikeS

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 29, 2018
299
73
74
By the way. This is a quote from Suntour's website in relation to their rear hub motor. And I can conform that it's no false claim when the bike is behaving itself:
"
If your outing takes longer than planned or if you use the bike for training purposes, with the genuine free wheel function it rides like a normal bike if the battery is flat or the motor exceeds 25 km/h. No resistance, just pure freedom!"
Mike
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,200
30,603
By the way. This is a quote from Suntour's website in relation to their rear hub motor. And I can conform that it's no false claim when the bike is behaving itself:
"
If your outing takes longer than planned or if you use the bike for training purposes, with the genuine free wheel function it rides like a normal bike if the battery is flat or the motor exceeds 25 km/h. No resistance, just pure freedom!"
Mike
Precisely Mike, the Bafang motor it uses has the usual internal freewheel that disconnects the motor from the hub rotation and therefore the pedalling. If the freewheel jams, as can happen, pedalling the bike involves rotating the motor geared about 6 to 1 up, which is certainly tough. But when that happens the wheel cannot spin freely by hand, but Rick says his does. Hence the puzzlement.

The broken crank sensor you mention is a different problem, making it seem these models have a serious quality control issue.
.
 
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MikeS

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 29, 2018
299
73
74
Ok flecc But I am almost certain that when my crossfire was misbehaving the first time, I stopped the Bike and lifted the back wheel and spun it. As it happens this is because I thought the brakes may have been binding. But the wheel spun freely. And yet mine had a serious problem independently confirmed by a Halfords employee. So Ricks May be the same
Mike
 

Sturmey

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2018
642
352
68
Ireland
I am just wondering is there any possibility that this problem could be caused by e bikes been fitted with tyres that are more durable but having very high rolling resistance, especially at lower psi. For example, Bicycle Rolling Resistance website tested Continental E.Contact tyres and found these to have double the rolling resistance of marathon almotion.
https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/tour-reviews/continental-e-contact-2015

And of course, rolling resistance really matters more proportionally at lower speeds as wind/air resistance is less.
 

MikeS

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 29, 2018
299
73
74
I am just wondering is there any possibility that this problem could be caused by e bikes been fitted with tyres that are more durable but having very high rolling resistance, especially at lower psi. For example, Bicycle Rolling Resistance website tested Continental E.Contact tyres and found these to have double the rolling resistance of marathon almotion.
https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/tour-reviews/continental-e-contact-2015

And of course, rolling resistance really matters more proportionally at lower speeds as wind/air resistance is less.
If Rick's problem is the same as mine was, it's much worse than tyre resistance. And Rick doesn't say, but in my case, the problem would sometimes disappear which makes it much more likely that some kind of gear train was failing to disengage.
Mike