Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

Looking at the latest videos from the Ukraine conflict, the sight of traffic jams of fleeing holiday makers in Crimea, must make very bad PR for Putin.

The poor tourists are faced with the same panic we from Hull would feel if holidaying in Skegness and someone bombed the approach to the Humber bridge!
Ok so it's just a matter of scale, imagine how far they will have to drive to get home! rather worse than our thirty mile or so diversion

 

[oyster]

Ok so it's just a matter of scale, imagine how far they will have to drive to get home! rather worse than our thirty mile or so diversion

So, unlike Hotel California, you actually can leave?

 

[flecc]

And starmer isn't much better. Why is he missing in action? Is he a neocon liz in drag colluding with ripping off the public, or just slow?

To me it's been apparent for many years that our governance conforms to an agreed public policy, meaning it doesn't matter who we elect, the same formula applies. For example our military and armaments policies were identical thoughout the whole cold war period and now again.

I'm quite sure there has been for some while a common policy to get us all used to a much lower standard of living, intended as a way to cope with this country having no real chance of betterment in today's world.

A major part of that is weaning us off car ownership in several ways. First by the forthcoming ban on us being able to buy ic cars, no matter how clean, in the certain knowledge that the masses won't be able to afford e-cars. Second by the concerted attack on car driving, examples being the widespread imposition of very low speed limits, the current return to functioning of numerous speed cameras, the new highway code's unfair impositions and the huge fuel cost hikes when a simple agreement with Russia would make then unnecessary. Note we've made an agreement to get grain out to avoid starvation, but aren't attempting the same to continue with cheap gas and oil.

The intention is not just suspected but admitted, to drive us out of cars and onto bicycles and buses, the hallmarks of poor countries worldwide.

Hence no political opposition, the only alternatives being the pseudo Labour types like wealthy Blair and Starmer and the character assassination of genuine socialists to drive them out of any power.

I'm very glad I'm the age I am so not needing to tolerate this sham democracy for very much longer.
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[oyster]

imagine how far they will have to drive to get home!

If I were going to have to drive back from Sebastopol, I'd choose Sebastopol, Griffithstown, Pontypool, Wales. About two and a half hours.

 

[Woosh]

Hence no political opposition, the only alternatives being the pseudo Labour types like wealthy Blair and Starmer and the character assassination of genuine socialists to drive them out of any power.

I agree with most your points but not the character assassination of genuine socialists though.
Can they form a viable government? They will need to borrow large amounts for a very long time to make ends meet.
Would they inspire confidence of the creditors or will they just print paper money?

 

[flecc]

I agree with most your points but not the character assassination of genuine socialists though.
Can they form a viable government? They will need to borrow large amounts for a very long time to make ends meet.
Would they inspire confidence of the creditors or will they just print paper money?

Can they form a viable government? . . . Yes

They will need to borrow large amounts for a very long time to make ends meet. . . . Not necessarily, redistribution of what we have via a much fairer taxation and benefits regime is also genuine socialism. Indeed it can be argued that borrowing large amounts is both speculative and capitalist in nature.

Would they inspire confidence of the creditors. . . . Initially no, thanks to the smearing tactics and character assassination by the Tory media. But as the common sense of my paragraph 2 actions shows its value, the confidence will grow.
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[Woosh]

Would they inspire confidence of the creditors. . . . Initially no, thanks to the smearing tactics and character assassination by the Tory media. But as the common sense of my paragraph 2 actions shows its value, the confidence will grow.
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I fear that the debt mountain of £2 trillions is what keep the socialists away from power.
Successive conservative governments have borrowed and borrowed to cut taxes.
A socialist government would have to a) convince a lot of voters to pay a lot more taxes b) to balance the budget and keep doing that until such a time they inspire enough confidence in their management of the public finances.
I am not saying it's impossible but this country is so drugged up in low taxes that to tell its population to go cold turkey is a very hard sell.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

I fear that the debt mountain of £2 trillions is what keep the socialists away from power.
Successive conservative governments have borrowed and borrowed to cut taxes.
A socialist government would have to a) convince a lot of voters to pay a lot more taxes b) to balance the budget and keep doing that until such a time they inspire enough confidence in their management of the public finance
I am not saying it's impossible but this country is so drugged up in low taxes that to tell its population to go cold turkey is a very hard sell.

A notable brexit benefit is that an electorate of middle class voters hoping to avoid tax may be a thing of the past. With luck it (and the pandemic and ww3) will leave us (as after ww2 when we established the NHS) with some hard won perspective

 

[flecc]

I am not saying it's impossible but this country is so drugged up in low taxes that to tell its population to go cold turkey is a very hard sell.

Agreed, but it can be achieved with care and truly transparent honesty.

Even George Osborne managed almost a decade of austerity by bluntly and openly stating the mess we were in.

The public aren't totally dumb, they know we are broke and deep in unsustainable debt, but they dont like to admit to it while the advantage takers are in power, taking the mickey out of them with their condescending attitudes and wealthy lifestyles.
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[jonathan.agnew]

Agreed, but it can be achieved with care and truly transparent honesty.

Even George Osborne managed almost a decade of austerity by bluntly and openly stating the mess we were in.

The public aren't totally dumb, they know we are broke and deep in unsustainable debt, but they dont like to admit to it while the advantage takers are in power, taking the mickey out of them with their condescending attitudes and wealthy lifestyles.
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Keynesian economics (as proposed by brown since 08) argue increased government spending increase output (and vice versa viz Osborne and austerity) but after covid and Ukraine we may be pushing that principle beyond its design spec

 

[oldgroaner]

So, unlike Hotel California, you actually can leave?

No one can be bothered, it's such a Utopia here
This morning my wife was due to be picked up by the Day Centre Bus at about 8 O Clock.
The bus was late, they rang me to say there was no way into the estate as the council had closed the single circular road that is the only access to the estate with barriers at both ends and diversion signs that pointed towards each other!
Being as I am, a life long Anarchist, I regard this as an outstanding effort on behalf of whoever is in charge of these road works.
(Assuming of course anyone is in charge)

 

[oyster]

No one can be bothered, it's such a Utopia here
This morning my wife was due to be picked up by the Day Centre Bus at about 8 O Clock.
The bus was late, they rang me to say there was no way into the estate as the council had closed the single circular road that is the only access to the estate with barriers at both ends and diversion signs that pointed towards each other!
Being as I am, a life long Anarchist, I regard this as an outstanding effort on behalf of whoever is in charge of these road works.
(Assuming of course anyone is in charge)

If Truss gets in, it will be Uturnia.

 

[flecc]

If Truss gets in, it will be Uturnia.

And feel like Eternalia, just like Thatcher's time.
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[Woosh]

what do you think of Kier Starmer's plan to freeze energy price at current level at the cost of around £30 billions? Money well spent? or should the help be more targetted, with a social rate on energy for the poorest?

 

[oyster]

what do you think of Kier Starmer's plan to freeze energy price at current level at the cost of around £30 billions? Money well spent? or should the help be more targetted, with a social rate on energy for the poorest?

It makes at least as much sense as the current other "plans".

But I do think the issue of prepaid meters being made comparable to other tariffs is an important step which they have also put forward. The idea that the "social" subsidy would cover any excess costs of prepaid meters seems quite reasonable. No-one who can really afford anything else remains on prepaid unless they CBA. But some marginal cases stay on prepaid to make sure they don't overspend. A degree of prudence that should be seen as responsibility for oneself and not subject to excess costs.

(I have not gone through any figures to assess value, etc.)

 

[flecc]

what do you think of Kier Starmer's plan to freeze energy price at current level at the cost of around £30 billions? Money well spent? or should the help be more targetted, with a social rate on energy for the poorest?

I fully agree with it and am totally opposed to the Tory response that the help should only go to those who cannot pay the new prices.

That means those who have been careful and have some savings lose all those savings to pay their bills.

Those who have been wantonly spending, often via huge credit card debt, and haven't put anything aside get carried again by the more responsible.

Labour's plan amounts to what I promoted a short while ago, reduce the huge costs at source. That is the only fair way.
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[daveboy]

what do you think of Kier Starmer's plan to freeze energy price at current level at the cost of around £30 billions? Money well spent? or should the help be more targetted, with a social rate on energy for the poorest?

I can see him announcing gas,water and electricity going back into public ownership.....about 3 months before an election.

 

[flecc]

I can see him announcing gas,water and electricity going back into public ownership.....about 3 months before an election.

It would be a winning move if the vastly inflated prices are still around then.

But would he want to apply what is so obviously a Corbyn policy that would cast him to the true left of socialist politics? I think not.
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[oyster]

It would be a winning move if the vastly inflated prices are still around then.

But would he want to apply what is so obviously a Corbyn policy that would cast him to the true left of socialist politics? I think not.
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Maybe:

Two-thirds of Tory voters back temporary nationalisation of energy firms – poll
Exclusive: Opinium poll also shows overwhelming support for Labour’s policy to freeze price cap

Two-thirds of Tory voters back temporary nationalisation of energy firms – poll

Opinium poll also shows overwhelming support for Labour’s policy to freeze price cap

www.theguardian.com

 

[Woosh]

I can see him announcing gas,water and electricity going back into public ownership.....about 3 months before an election.

I can't see that. There is a good article explaining the situation with water companies in the news today.
Knee-jerk nationalisers have no idea how the water industry actually works - CapX
Basically, OFWAT sets the target of water loss and pollution for water companies. The more money they invest or waste, the more they get paid. So if it's only up to the water companies, bills will go up very fast. If government wants to freeze prices, then they will have to accept degradation of the pipes.
If Starmer wants to re-nationalise, he'll have to borrow upward of £100 billions and prepare to invest many more billions every year fixing leaks.
Gas is a different thing. I can see government building gas storage facilities, buy the gas and sell it to marketing companies to retail to the public. It's still not a case for re-nationalising though.