Brexit, for once some facts.

[oyster]

Yep, our government have made mistakes, tell me one that hasn't. But some things they have got right.

Unfortunately, the balance is massively skewed.

About the only thing that stands out is vaccination but even there, there have been many mistakes on the way.

And, when we see massive gouging of government funds, that seems to cement those involved as major players forever.

Was it really beyond the wit of the treasury to put some clawback mechanism into furlough?

Remember that lack of PPE was something the government should have acted on years ago - long before the pandemic. It isn't just Johnson, it is May, and Cameron too.

 

[Danidl]

Can't see any problems with our posters there.... At all.

Yes, they all have a “can do” make it happen approach and when necessary depoliticise a situation.
It should all run like clockwork. What could possibly go wrong for them.
[/QUOTE]
There is an underlying thread here of on one hand being grateful for handouts from a government and the other of resentfulness. Both are basically childish. The Government in any Western Democracy exists to serve the will of the people. So we do not need to be greatful to a Government for giving us things, with what essentially is our wealth. Rather we should be congratulating ourselves on our wisdom in selecting people who are responsible and responsive ,or berating ourselves for letting lying chancers fleece us yet again. We employ them to manage our resources on behalf of the community.
Now the UKs performance in 9/10 of this current epidemic has been one of the worst in the world in terms of inconsistencies , U turns, untruths etc. That the vaccine rollout has been a short term success cannot be denied. Had they not made the set of gambles of .
1. Issuing an unproved vaccine without full rigour in November
2. Broken the protocols for delivering it in December
The death rates in the UK at present would have been astronomical.
The glitches in the unproven testing are coming home to roost .in the firm of excessive blood clotting in some cohorts .
The broken protocol, about delivery of second jabs , seems to be successful, and may even be taken up by the more cautious EU.

 

[oyster]

berating ourselves for letting lying chancers fleece us yet again

That is a very large part of the problem. How do I berate myself when I most certainly didn't vote them into office?

A number of years ago, HoC allowed the recall petition process to get rid of MPs under certain circumstances. Which, although not perfect, was a step in the right direction. But however much some of us dislike our current mob, most of us have very little power to do anything about them.

 

[Nev]

I thought Tim Harford provided a good way of explaining the risk of dying from a blood clot after having the AZ vaccine. He said "being vaccinated with the AZ jab carries a one off risk of death of one in a million, not much higher than the risk of dying in an accident while travelling to a vaccination clinic."

See here
Why we shouldn’t worry about Covid vaccine blood clots | Financial Times (ft.com)

 

[Zlatan]

That is a very large part of the problem. How do I berate myself when I most certainly didn't vote them into office?

A number of years ago, HoC allowed the recall petition process to get rid of MPs under certain circumstances. Which, although not perfect, was a step in the right direction. But however much some of us dislike our current mob, most of us have very little power to do anything about them.

Especially so when they are the only mob. And anybody who thinks Tories have a monopoly on sleaze is naive to point of delusion. Only thing Tories have a monopoly on is Electability.
Seems to me this thread has become a haven for all the dissatisfied. Provides a focal point fot the obsession to spiral out of control. Majority of folk have a much more reasoned and ultimately sensible stance. Yes, this government has its faults, yes its made mistakes but ultimately they haven't done such a bad job overall and actually done a great one with vaccines. Uk now sits around 12th/13th in death rate World wide. If we accept OG's interpretation of Brazil (and probably a few others seriously under reporting) we are more likely around 15th..(on death rate per million)
The virus is responsible for the deaths. Saying Tories are is quite ridiculous.
The better but ultimately utterly hypothetical question is how many would have died with any other governments. I suspect almost identical. Many of the faults and causes some place at feet of current government are endemic to all our governments over past 25 years. Perhaps all you Tory sceptics should have a good look at Blair's attitude to dealing with pandemics when he was in no 10..But conveniently for so many he wasn't Labour was he.. Just hijacked the willing party members to get in power. And thensold entire movement and country down the pan by lying to us all and taking country into an illegal war at the behest of his master... Mr Bush.. Yep, Labour can be relied upon.
Instead of just blaming Tories can we all please offer alternative stratagies and people capable of delivering them. I, m rather fed up with being told I, m to blame for this government as I voted for them. Anybody in their right mind had no choice. And, they have IMHO, done OK. Actually better than the alternative would have by a country mile. I, m actually glad we had Tories. Can you imagine Starmer or Corbyn trying to stand up to EU. No chance.
Agreed Hancock comes over smarmy, but where would Abot have fitted in and what would she have achieved. Or McDonel or where would McCluskey have taken government... After the cleaners that is.

 

[oyster]

I thought Tim Harford provided a good way of explaining the risk of dying from a blood clot after having the AZ vaccine. He said "being vaccinated with the AZ jab carries a one off risk of death of one in a million, not much higher than the risk of dying in an accident while travelling to a vaccination clinic."

See here
Why we shouldn’t worry about Covid vaccine blood clots | Financial Times (ft.com)

Mind, there has been very little effective communication about the issue. Yes, endless discussion about whether or not there is an issue, but precious little about the factors which could make a difference. Yes - we also see that those who are younger and female are the most affected.

But what would you want to know before agreeing if in a higher risk group?

1) Are there any other factors which indicate greater susceptibility? Like iron deficiency, being on the pill, etc.

2) Are there any things that can be done to reduce likelihood of clot - such as a full blood count before the vaccination? Or, as they used to do for blood doning, a jar of copper sulphate to check for iron deficiency.

3) In detail, what should we look out for when we have received the vaccination, which could indicate a clot issue.

4) Absolute certainty that, if we think we could have a clot, we will receive appropriate immediate treatment - and not just be told by a nurse or 111 to ring again in a couple of days if we have not recovered.

 

[flecc]

We don't have a viable alternative and besides nobodody is ever even suggesting one

Probably because a nobodody doesn't exist.

Just the same old vindictive bile from the same places.

I know, it's dreadful the way you constantly criticise some other member's posts at length. Boris would be proud of you if he knew, you'd probably get an MBE in the New Years Honours list.
.

 

[Zlatan]

Probably because a nobodody doesn't exist.



I know, it's dreadful the way you constantly criticise some other member's posts at length. Boris would be proud of you if he knew, you'd probably get an MBE in the New Years Honours list.
.

I, d accept it... Touch of reality in a sea of delusion.
A new word.. Nobodody... Well spotted.
There is a reason BJ is PM Flecc. He, s seen as the most popular, capable and liked politician of this current crop. He, s more popular than ever.

 

[oldgroaner]

It's nice to see the voice of reason prevails on thread. It really has become a backwater of resentment.
Yep, our government have made mistakes, tell me one that hasn't. But some things they have got right.
Seems some on here see all the faults, never stop moaning about them with the now monotonous repetition yet take all the benefits for granted.
Said it before. The only people suffering with this perverse attitude are the people uttering the grievances. We don't have a viable alternative and besides nobodody is ever even suggesting one,or even a viable strategy that would have saved anyone.
We have on the one hand calls for fewer restrictions and then on the other calls for more. Worldwide deaths are in their millions. Some countries are totally devastated.
Perhaps all you folk with such a low opinion of our government and country really should find an alternative, after all nothing is going to change with regards either in a very very long time. Tories are stronger now than perhaps any other time in their history.
I, m afraid OG is setting himself up to be sad, angry and bitter for at least the next decade. And, he isn't alone, but might as well be. Lots of noise from dissenters but no real progress towards doing anything about it.
Just the same old vindictive bile from the same places. Do something OG,find an alternative, vote for someone who represents you and Jonathon. But being realistic, there is no one. So perhaps time to realise you are out of step, so perhaps time to search for a country more in keeping with your wishes. Good luck on that one.

I suggest you take your own advice, instead of trying to polish the dreadful actions of the dangerous set of lunatics running the country]
You really need to think before posting, there is no time left for me to "find another country" the next place is shall occupy is a box, and why should I leave because vermin have driven me out?
You have such a warped point of view that any form of criticism seems to you "vindictive bile"
What a shame that my criticisms are without exceptions factual and justifiable, and you and the other end of the pantomime horse still furiously flag wave at anything no matter how absurd if fits in with the propaganda aimed daily at us all

Perhaps all of you people who voted for Brexit and even the Conservatives should be the ones to leave, after all you have done enough to promote Putin's agenda to undermine this country.

Get a grip

 

[Jesus H Christ]

Yes, they all have a “can do” make it happen approach and when necessary depoliticise a situation.
It should all run like clockwork. What could possibly go wrong for them.

There is an underlying thread here of on one hand being grateful for handouts from a government and the other of resentfulness. Both are basically childish. The Government in any Western Democracy exists to serve the will of the people. So we do not need to be greatful to a Government for giving us things, with what essentially is our wealth. Rather we should be congratulating ourselves on our wisdom in selecting people who are responsible and responsive ,or berating ourselves for letting lying chancers fleece us yet again. We employ them to manage our resources on behalf of the community.
Now the UKs performance in 9/10 of this current epidemic has been one of the worst in the world in terms of inconsistencies , U turns, untruths etc. That the vaccine rollout has been a short term success cannot be denied. Had they not made the set of gambles of .
1. Issuing an unproved vaccine without full rigour in November
2. Broken the protocols for delivering it in December
The death rates in the UK at present would have been astronomical.
The glitches in the unproven testing are coming home to roost .in the firm of excessive blood clotting in some cohorts .
The broken protocol, about delivery of second jabs , seems to be successful, and may even be taken up by the more cautious EU.
[/QUOTE]

My second Oxford jab is in 3 weeks time.

Deaths down, infections down, hospitalisations down. All good. Sadly not the case on the continent.

The U.K. has got this right.

 

[Jesus H Christ]

I am now able to share with you all some exciting news. I’ve been shortlisted for the vacant post of Duke of Edinburgh! I’m just waiting for @wheeler to provide me with a character reference.

 

[Danidl]

That is a very large part of the problem. How do I berate myself when I most certainly didn't vote them into office?

A number of years ago, HoC allowed the recall petition process to get rid of MPs under certain circumstances. Which, although not perfect, was a step in the right direction. But however much some of us dislike our current mob, most of us have very little power to do anything about them.

But you did... Your actions or inactions made it happen. You did not actively campaign for what you wanted with enough other people, or you were ineffective in your campaign.

 

[oldgroaner]

There is an underlying thread here of on one hand being grateful for handouts from a government and the other of resentfulness. Both are basically childish. The Government in any Western Democracy exists to serve the will of the people. So we do not need to be greatful to a Government for giving us things, with what essentially is our wealth. Rather we should be congratulating ourselves on our wisdom in selecting people who are responsible and responsive ,or berating ourselves for letting lying chancers fleece us yet again. We employ them to manage our resources on behalf of the community.
Now the UKs performance in 9/10 of this current epidemic has been one of the worst in the world in terms of inconsistencies , U turns, untruths etc. That the vaccine rollout has been a short term success cannot be denied. Had they not made the set of gambles of .
1. Issuing an unproved vaccine without full rigour in November
2. Broken the protocols for delivering it in December
The death rates in the UK at present would have been astronomical.
The glitches in the unproven testing are coming home to roost .in the firm of excessive blood clotting in some cohorts .
The broken protocol, about delivery of second jabs , seems to be successful, and may even be taken up by the more cautious EU.

My second Oxford jab is in 3 weeks time.

Deaths down, infections down, hospitalisations down. All good. Sadly not the case on the continent.

The U.K. has got this right.
[/QUOTE]
You missed out the fact we abused the EU by using 21 million doses from them and sent them none at all
So you can, to a large degree thank the EU for that rather than waving your Union Jack.
And as to this
"The death rates in the UK at present would have been astronomical."
The lockdown stopped that happening, the vaccine simply helped
120,000 dead would just love to be alive to disagree with any celebration, and if a resistant version of Covid, takes hold, your complacent attitude to the vaccine may be short lived
We are not at the end of this particular gamble after all.

 

[oldgroaner]

I, d accept it... Touch of reality in a sea of delusion.
A new word.. Nobodody... Well spotted.
There is a reason BJ is PM Flecc. He, s seen as the most popular, capable and liked politician of this current crop. He, s more popular than ever.

A sad reflection on the intelligence of the average voters and he still only got a massive majority through a lousy FPTP system, and years of rigging electoral areas

 

[Zlatan]

But you did... Your actions or inactions made it happen. You did not actively campaign for what you wanted with enough other people, or you were ineffective in your campaign.

That's the case in every example of the continual criticism of our Governments actions. It becomes just noise, which is exactly the response Labour have exercised along with many posters on here.
Criticism becomes pointless without any actual alternative offered or supported.
Saying our government got things wrong with absolutely no alternative strategy offered is absolutely futile.... But it's so easy.
Just knock everything. No thought required. It becomes pure obsessional prejudice, not against strategy or policy but against a group. OG and others are totally incapable of seperating actions from the group taking those actions. Tories are wrong not because they have done things badly, but because they are Tories. Anybody incapable of seeing what has been achieved in some areas is prejudiced.
And, as in post above, when it's pointed out Tories are more popular than ever, that is not a reflection on good policy from them but because of poor intelligence from those supporting them. The voters fault again. Easy cop out yet again.

 

[Zlatan]

I suggest you take your own advice, instead of trying to polish the dreadful actions of the dangerous set of lunatics running the country]
You really need to think before posting, there is no time left for me to "find another country" the next place is shall occupy is a box, and why should I leave because vermin have driven me out?
You have such a warped point of view that any form of criticism seems to you "vindictive bile"
What a shame that my criticisms are without exceptions factual and justifiable, and you and the other end of the pantomime horse still furiously flag wave at anything no matter how absurd if fits in with the propaganda aimed daily at us all

Perhaps all of you people who voted for Brexit and even the Conservatives should be the ones to leave, after all you have done enough to promote Putin's agenda to undermine this country.

Get a grip

I, m not the one continually griping about our Government and countries actions.
You knock everything, blame government and then blame voters for putting them there. I, m fairly happy with how pandemic has been handled and very happy how vaccine roll out has gone.
You aren't happy with any of it yet you tell me to get a grip. You take all the benefits but criticise everything and then blame Tory voters for Labour failings.
Its actually been a godsend getting a government with an 80 majority capable of making decisions. Thick, obsessed prejudiced posters are incapable of seeing the benefits that has given country but it doesn't stop them trotting along to their vaccine centre for a vaccine they continually knock.

 

[oldgroaner]

I, m not the one continually griping about our Government and countries actions.
You knock everything, blame government and then blame voters for putting them there. I, m fairly happy with how pandemic has been handled and very happy how vaccine roll out has gone.
You aren't happy with any of it yet you tell me to get a grip. You take all the benefits but criticise everything and then blame Tory voters for Labour failings.
Its actually been a godsend getting a government with an 80 majority capable of making decisions. Thick, obsessed prejudiced posters are incapable of seeing the benefits that has given country but it doesn't stop them trotting along to their vaccine centre for a vaccine they continually knock.

Blame Tory voters for Labour failings?
Don't you ever read my posts?
I blame Tory voters for the whole mess, it's YOU that blames that on Labour failings, hence you need to get a grip on reality
And in your classic uncomprehending manner you posted this
"Thick, obsessed prejudiced posters are incapable of seeing the benefits that has given country but it doesn't stop them trotting along to their vaccine centre for a vaccine they continually knock."

Which vaccine have I continuously knocked and said not to use?
At all times I have not said to stop using any of them, you are doing the classic Tory thinking and seeing what you want see, not what was written.
All along I have said that where there are cases of deaths then they need to be investigated and necessary action or restricted usage.
That is to me and the rest of Humanity bar a couple of nutters on here simply sensible.
Why do you see that as an attack specifically aimed at a vaccine that you want to wave your little Union Jack about?

However for sheer utter breathtaking stupidity your last comment is the worst
"Its actually been a godsend getting a government with an 80 majority capable of making decisions.."
Thousands killed though a series of mad decisions and the economy in ruins?
Not to mention giving their mates billions of taxpayer's money?
Are you out of your tiny mind??

Come back when you want a serious conversation

 

[Zlatan]

Serious conversation with you?? Delusional again.
Who do you blame for the millions killed by the virus world wide and the hundreds of thousands throughout Europe? Boris again?

Our death rate is around average for EU countries... Not sure what your esteemed Labour leaders would have done but perhaps you could explain. But you won't, you, l just ramble about Japan and New Zealand in utter ignorance of any actual criteria determining death rates.

 

[oyster]

l just ramble

Yep - quite a bit! (Not for one moment denying my capacity for rambling.)

I rather hope that a non-tory government might have matched the best the tory government has achieved with respect to Covid - but without the colossal scale of corruption. We'll never know so my hope is as good as anyone else's expression of opinion regarding the issue.

 

[oldgroaner]

Serious conversation with you?? Delusional again.
Who do you blame for the millions killed by the virus world wide and the hundreds of thousands throughout Europe? Boris again?

Our death rate is around average for EU countries... Not sure what your esteemed Labour leaders would have done but perhaps you could explain. But you won't, you, l just ramble about Japan and New Zealand in utter ignorance of any actual criteria determining death rates.

There you go again, another rant.
And your latest fiction is the notion that I blame Boris for the world wide death toll?

I explained previously what should have been done, and simply observed that Corbyn would have locked down earlier as he isn't simply interested in protecting the economy nor inclined to spend billions with his mates.

As to our losses being average for the European area , think again!

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1115043/coronavirus-deaths-timeline-in-the-eu-5/