Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
It's been a long time since I posted on the forum. But in for a penny...as they say. I've been following the vaccination postings with interest. For what it's worth I have decided not to have the vaccine at the present time. One reason is a personal one in that I strongly object to the levels of coercion being applied by the Govt. I am a psychologist by trade (retired from the NHS three years ago after 30+ years. The second is that for my money there are too many unknowns about the longer term safety aspects of the new technology used in the AZ, Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. Stage 3 clinical trials are not due to be completed till the end of 2022 or into 2023.
I see my refusal as a rational decision based on the available information. I also recognise that it is not without risk as is accepting any of the current vaccines. If I had been a few years older with underlying health conditions then my decision may well have been different. Interestingly, I did register very early on to be on the vaccine register for involvement in clinical trials and if asked would have volunteered. I see a big difference to volunteering for a controlled clinical trial compared to being coercerced into what is in effect a huge uncontrolled public health experiment. One of the things I learned from my NHS years is that a number of the procedures and treatments that were deemed to be safe at their introduction turned out to be anything but over time.
I hope that people like myself do not end up being scapegoats but I guess that is a risk I will take. I have total respect for people who decide to accept vaccination and hope that there is the same respect for those that refuse. I guess time will tell. At the present time it isn't looking good with media references to anti-vaccers and tin hat brigade etc.
I see my refusal as a rational decision based on the available information. I also recognise that it is not without risk as is accepting any of the current vaccines. If I had been a few years older with underlying health conditions then my decision may well have been different. Interestingly, I did register very early on to be on the vaccine register for involvement in clinical trials and if asked would have volunteered. I see a big difference to volunteering for a controlled clinical trial compared to being coercerced into what is in effect a huge uncontrolled public health experiment. One of the things I learned from my NHS years is that a number of the procedures and treatments that were deemed to be safe at their introduction turned out to be anything but over time.
I hope that people like myself do not end up being scapegoats but I guess that is a risk I will take. I have total respect for people who decide to accept vaccination and hope that there is the same respect for those that refuse. I guess time will tell. At the present time it isn't looking good with media references to anti-vaccers and tin hat brigade etc.
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Oh Dear, oh dear!
Remember before the Referendum how the German Car manufacturers were going to "Spring to our rescues as they couldn't allow for the loss of car sales?
This in the FT
"German exports to Britain in January down about 30 per cent year on year,
g a trend of declining trade between the two countries since the Brexit referendum in 2016, according to figures released by the federal statistical agency this week. "
Note the word Trend, not a sudden event and the trade with the rest of Europe
"
Separately, Italy last month reported a 38 per cent year-on-year drop in exports to the UK and a 70 per cent drop in British imports in January — both much steeper declines than those with other countries.
According to the FT
French exports to the UK down 13 per cent in January compared with the average of the previous six months, French imports from the UK fell 20 per cent, according to the French customs office. “Trade with Britain is disrupted due to Brexit,” it said. The volume of French exports and imports from other countries rose in January compared with the previous month.
Up until the cliff edge they had slightly improved
Something really has to be done, and not just start arguing with the EU, this is madness
Remember before the Referendum how the German Car manufacturers were going to "Spring to our rescues as they couldn't allow for the loss of car sales?
This in the FT
"German exports to Britain in January down about 30 per cent year on year,
g a trend of declining trade between the two countries since the Brexit referendum in 2016, according to figures released by the federal statistical agency this week. "
Note the word Trend, not a sudden event and the trade with the rest of Europe
"
Separately, Italy last month reported a 38 per cent year-on-year drop in exports to the UK and a 70 per cent drop in British imports in January — both much steeper declines than those with other countries.
According to the FT
French exports to the UK down 13 per cent in January compared with the average of the previous six months, French imports from the UK fell 20 per cent, according to the French customs office. “Trade with Britain is disrupted due to Brexit,” it said. The volume of French exports and imports from other countries rose in January compared with the previous month.
Up until the cliff edge they had slightly improved
Something really has to be done, and not just start arguing with the EU, this is madness
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I think when people make such well reasoned arguments and go to trouble of explaining nobody should question your refusal to be vaccinated. (Well they shouldn't anyway I suppose) . Well written, coherent sensible post. It's your decision. Nobody else's.
Thanks Flecc. At end of day they are all happy anyhow. A wedding postponed is hardly a problem. We should take our time. Agreed.
The choice is of course yours to make and the reasoning behind it makes sense, I have not exactly been flavour of the month for my attitude to the Government trying to make gambling seem like "following the science"
It simply isn't
Anyway it's good to hear from you!
Oh Dear The Express have turned ugly
(In a relative sense , perhaps uglier is more fitting)
And they're not helping Fromages image much either!
Fishing farce: Boris's deal leaves UK fishermen with LESS quota than before Brexit BRITISH fishermen have access to less quota than they did before Brexit due to Boris Johnson's failure to negotiate a robust trading partnership with the European Union, a fishing boss has said.
We could modify the old Aneurin Bevan Quote
This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organizing genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time.
To this
This island is largely dependent on Selling financial Services and surrounded by fish it sells to the EU. Only an organizing genius could produce a shortage of Financial Services sales revenue and fish sales at the same time.
And then pick a fight with it's customers!
(In a relative sense , perhaps uglier is more fitting)
And they're not helping Fromages image much either!
Fishing farce: Boris's deal leaves UK fishermen with LESS quota than before Brexit BRITISH fishermen have access to less quota than they did before Brexit due to Boris Johnson's failure to negotiate a robust trading partnership with the European Union, a fishing boss has said.
We could modify the old Aneurin Bevan Quote
This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organizing genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time.
To this
This island is largely dependent on Selling financial Services and surrounded by fish it sells to the EU. Only an organizing genius could produce a shortage of Financial Services sales revenue and fish sales at the same time.
And then pick a fight with it's customers!
.. Without prejudice, can I suggest that the " without underlying health condition" is whistling passing a graveyard. Since you were employed for 30 years, you are unlikely to be in a much different demographic than myself. Last August, I would have put myself in exactly that category. Last September/ October I got 6 stents. And no all I had was an apparent slight belch and a slight aversion to excercise. Had I got CV19, I would not be writing this.
Absolutely, you are merely exercising your right of choice in a sensibly judged and entirely valid manner.
It's unfortunate that you will inevitably get lumped in with the refusniks like POLLY who insist that Covid-19 doesn't exist. I don't see any solution to that in a world where too much is judged in crude newspaper headline terms.
Welcome back in anyway, its good to hear from you again.
.
Couple of mates who had a Brazil windsurf trip booked when all this started( it was cancelled) were insistent they were not having Covid jab. One thinks it's part of New World order rubbish, other said he had no idea what's in it... Yep, of course its a free world but they had had Jabs for Malaria, Hep Aand B, Typhoid, Cholera, Rabies and Yellow fever in preparedness for Brazil. (If anything is going around windsurfers get it sailing in River mouths and near beaches, dog and mosquitos bites) I didn't question about it but seems rather an odd stance..???
When somebody says to them you can't go windsurfing until they have had covid jab they, ll rush to vax centre.(and not for a hoover)
Few years ago we went to Kenya and more recently Goa.We had loads of shots for both, can't remember asking a thing about any of them. Stuff could have been brand new or cow pox from Jenners day. Bet we all ask now.
When somebody says to them you can't go windsurfing until they have had covid jab they, ll rush to vax centre.(and not for a hoover)
Few years ago we went to Kenya and more recently Goa.We had loads of shots for both, can't remember asking a thing about any of them. Stuff could have been brand new or cow pox from Jenners day. Bet we all ask now.
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I hope you don’t catch coronavirus and die, or worse, catch it, pass it on and kill some other poor ******.
I think your attitude is selfish, irresponsible, reckless and born out of stupidity or lack of courage. But that’s your choice.
There is a certain level of risk associated with this vaccine, but there is a greater wider benefit for the global community as a whole. Sometimes we have to step up and do something that involves a certain level of personal risk for the benefit of others. However, there always has been and there always will be those lacking the backbone to do what is necessary.
Yes, I think you are right in that there is a degree of personal interest involved. However, I suspect that is also the case for many people who accept the vaccine. I would point out that I placed myself on the vaccine register to be part of the clinical trials and would have participated in these had I been invited. However, I don't really need to justify myself any further than that. Oddly enough though I do appreciate your response which is heartfelt. The thing is though that I am never going to change your mind, nor you mine on a forum like this. Thanks to everyone else who made comments but I think maybe it's best to leave things there.
Couldn't agree more on the changing mind point on this forum. Nobody has changed their minds on any thing in 4 years. As a psychologist I, d guess you, d know more than most on that one.
To be honest there aren't any altruistic upstanding benefit for society motives on my part to have vaccine. All utterly selfish.
Having being a sort of mathematician all my life its a pure numbers study for me.
As it is if I went about my everyday life meeting even the few folk I do, I, d guess I have around a 1 in 10 chance of catching covid. I, d guess my chance of dying would be 1 in a 100 having caught it. Combined overall... becomes 1 in a 1000.Go out loads...I,m going to come unstuck.
Repeat post vaccine. Chance of catching if most are vaccinated... 1 in 100..? .Chance of dying post vaccine having caught it.. 1 in 10,000?? Combined risk... 1 in 1 000 000...reckon that's less risk than driving car.
So vaccine everytime for me. . But for selfish reasons.
To my mind the vaccine is double edged. It reduces your chance of catching it and reduces your chance of dying if you do. No matter what numerical value you place on both those risks they are compounded so have a massive affect on overall risk.??? If that makes sense.
Long term issues? I, m too old to worry much about those. Probably drown trying to sail somewhere.
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I don't regard this forum existing for the purpose of changing anybody's Minds it's real value is providing information and views 4 discussion, which was the purpose flecc assign to it when he started it and it has done that very well indeed, judging by the number of hits there are many people who never join in yet come back from time to time to enjoy catching up with the state of play, and I suspect enjoy the verbal jousting and often humorous remarks
That’s a good reply. Very measured, classy even. I feel bad now for making my earlier remarks. Stick around, I think we might get on.
I, m fairly sure if homeoz is anything like psychologists I worked with he, ll be pretty thick skinned. I, d guess your post is mild at side of some he, s had from clients.He, ll be used to working with such as us...
In fact we could do with a resident psychologist... Or perhaps psychiatrist for some.. No names no pack drill.
You are right though. Great reply.
and if this familiar underhand passive aggression jibe doesn't put you off, you've come to the right place
Underhand??? No it wasn't. Was quite direct. If cap fits Jonathon.
You haven't called anyone Tory fan boy for a day or two. You OK?
And quite ironic from the poster who bullied Susan out after posting for a couple of weeks. Never been back since you insulted her..
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It's a pity Zlatan has taken his ball home, he might have been interested in this
Covid-19: the UK’s herd immunity gamble cost lives new A year ago this week, as the rest of the world was shutting down, 250,000 people converged on Cheltenham races. In an extract from their book, Failures of State, Jonathan Calvert and George Arbuthnott reveal why the event was allowed to go ahead
Incidentally if you have an Iphone you can read it on Apple News
It shows that nothing was further from the truth that these so called experts knew the risks they were taking
Covid-19: the UK’s herd immunity gamble cost lives new A year ago this week, as the rest of the world was shutting down, 250,000 people converged on Cheltenham races. In an extract from their book, Failures of State, Jonathan Calvert and George Arbuthnott reveal why the event was allowed to go ahead
Incidentally if you have an Iphone you can read it on Apple News
It shows that nothing was further from the truth that these so called experts knew the risks they were taking
I have been trying to be yours, but it's too much of a challenge, especially now you've taken your ball home, but on the credit side absence makes the heart grow fonder
And the lack of Flak is just bliss!