Brexit, for once some facts.

[Nev]

I know, but think about the test and trace. It has cost four hundred thousand pounds to put in place each of the 25000 contact tracers. Four hundred thousand pounds each, and it still doesn't work. How is it possible to spend so much money? What has it been spent on? I can't figure it out.

My guess would be companies such as Deloitte which are involved in the tracing system are absolutely coining it at the moment. I don't know if its possible to find out how much they are being paid for their work but I would not be surprised to learn that the details are kept quite for commercial confidentiality reasons.

There are some (admittedly only a few) people in parliament that might take a look at the money that is being and has been spent on this crisis, maybe the public accounts committee might look at it all in the future.

 

[flecc]

The only downside to your proposal of 'get it over quick' was the possibility of the NHS getting overwhelmed by cases.
However, once the Nightingale hospitals were built, we probably could have relaxed some restrictions.

But London showed something different, we had a huge number of cases immediately, over double the national rate, due to our circumstances and ignoring restrictions, and that was before any Nightingale was open, yet we managed after a fashion, albeit with more early deaths.

But now we are benefitting from the lowest national rate without the many deaths still happening elsewhere and the ExCel Nightingale an almost completely unused expensive white elephant.

Sweden financially and health wise got win/lose. We've contrived to have lose/lose, not smart.
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[Barry Shittpeas]

My guess would be companies such as Deloitte which are involved in the tracing system are absolutely coining it at the moment. I don't know if its possible to find out how much they are being paid for their work but I would not be surprised to learn that the details are kept quite for commercial confidentiality reasons.

There are some (admittedly only a few) people in parliament that might take a look at the money that is being and has been spent on this crisis, maybe the public accounts committee might look at it all in the future.

When I heard that they had appointed an accounting firm to source PPE, I began to fear the worst. Money being syphoned off, extortionate fees and a type of "legal" money laundering . I was wrong, it far far worse than I ever imagined. Ten thousand million pounds, I'm still reeling from that.

 

[flecc]

Ten thousand million pounds, I'm still reeling from that.

It can't be ten thousand million pounds, that's 10 billion pounds.

Have you been chatting with Diane Abbott?
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[Barry Shittpeas]

It can't be ten thousand million pounds, that's 10 billion pounds.

Have you been chatting with Diane Abbott?
.

That was my immediate thought, it can’t possibly be 10 Billion, no way on this planet could it be so much. No idiots anywhere, ever, could spend so much and achieve so little. It appears that I was wrong, such people do in fact exist.

Coronavirus Test and Trace system has cost £10bn and still isn't fully working

The full extent of Government expenditure since the start of the pandemic in March has been revealed in a new report released by the Treasury

www.google.co.uk

 

[RossG]

But London showed something different, we had a huge number of cases immediately, over double the national rate, due to our circumstances and ignoring restrictions, and that was before any Nightingale was open, yet we managed after a fashion, albeit with more early deaths.

But now we are benefitting from the lowest national rate without the many deaths still happening elsewhere and the ExCel Nightingale an almost completely unused expensive white elephant.

Sweden financially and health wise got win/lose. We've contrived to have lose/lose, not smart.
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[RossG]

When we talk of London flecc we have to get it all in the right perspective. It did badly for the very reasons you highlighted, ignoring restrictions plus of course being the capital city it was bound to get a pasting.
As I often do when making comparisons I look at Portsmouth as I live quite close by and know the place & it's people very well. A pop. of 230.000 + yet only around 40 odd deaths from covid, ok it's not the capital but it's just as densely packed. It doesn't have a Tube to cram people into of course, so shut the Tube down completely and save lives.
Sadiq Khan partially closed it and I'm sure saved lives, he'd have saved even more if he'd pulled the drawbridge up straight away. Pompey doesn't have a large ethnic minority population ?...oh yes it does, some areas I can think of have a huge Asian make up, it also has (when in residence) around 16000 students a large percentage of those come from China. And so it goes on... their lockdown is strict, pubs are open but pretty much empty I even had to queue to go into a charity shop while in Portsmouth & I've been thrown out of stores twice for disobeying the rules albeit by mistake. Total cases of covid in Portsmouth in the last 5 weeks = 1. I think we know what works and what doesn't.

 

[oldgroaner]

If they have absolutely no symptoms, they haven't caught it. No symptoms whatsoever mean no illness is being suffered, other than the ill fortune of having been born.

And you're ignoring the valuable evidence from Sweden of teachers not contracting anything extra from children, despite their close proximity as usual throughout the pandemic.

I say valuable evidence since they are the one country reporting reliably which at the outset didn't lock down with social distancing at all or make any other defensive changes. Their lives just carried on as usual so they've suffered virtually no economic damage in consequence. I wish we'd done the same and for decades of paying off debt we will live to regret that we didn't.
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And yet it will also in the fullness of time make a more urgent case for rejoining the EU out of desperation.

 

[mike killay]

It can't be ten thousand million pounds, that's 10 billion pounds.

Have you been chatting with Diane Abbott?
.

Technically, I think that in Europe, 1,000,000,000 is a milliard, so 10 milliards.
In the USA its different and I know that our MP's prefer USA figures when it is to their advantage and EU figures when it is to their disadvantage

 

[mike killay]

But London showed something different, we had a huge number of cases immediately, over double the national rate, due to our circumstances and ignoring restrictions, and that was before any Nightingale was open, yet we managed after a fashion, albeit with more early deaths.

But now we are benefitting from the lowest national rate without the many deaths still happening elsewhere and the ExCel Nightingale an almost completely unused expensive white elephant.

Sweden financially and health wise got win/lose. We've contrived to have lose/lose, not smart.
.

I would dispute that the Nightingales were a waste.In the early days there was much criticism of a lack of equipment etc.
Nobody could predict exactly how virulent the infection would be.
Better safe than sorry. Also it has been good practice in case of future pandemics.
One benefit of the lock down seen here in Wales was preventing refugees from the cities overloading our rather modest hospital provision.
As to the figures for deaths.
Not so long ago a TV programme showed scientists still investigating the Spanish flu of 100 years ago and I have no doubt that enquiries into CV will go on, perhaps for decades.
At present, to compare the rates for different countries ignores the differences in record keeping, definition of a CV death (many just Doctor's guess work), and I guess that the figures for some countries will have to be revised upwards, particularly those where politicians felt that their society was not stable enough to accept the true scale of devastation.
Even here in the UK, in the early days, Wales apparently did not keep records of CV deaths until prodded by central government.
In time, we will be able to compare the overall annual death rate either side of the CV days and obtain a clearer picture of how many deaths were truly attributable to CV and how many were persons virtually on death's door anyway.
It will take quite some time before we have a clear picture

 

[flecc]

I look at Portsmouth as I live quite close by and know the place & it's people very well. A pop. of 230.000 + yet only around 40 odd deaths from covid, ok it's not the capital but it's just as densely packed. It doesn't have a Tube to cram people into of course, so shut the Tube down completely and save lives.

Not just the tube being different. The densely packed living circumstance we have for many are very different from there. And Portsmouth didn't have Heathrow and London City airports pouring in thousands of people from corona hotspots. Nor a Eurostar terminal doing likewise. Nor 9000 buses.

But I'm not arguing that London was better at defensive measures, it wasn't. Sadiq Khan's actions didn't happen until weeks after the outbreak began here. I'm just arguing the deaths versus costs differences in approach, yet no-one in here seem to understand that, so just they argue about something else as you've done.
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[flecc]

In time, we will be able to compare the overall annual death rate either side of the CV days and obtain a clearer picture of how many deaths were truly attributable to CV and how many were persons virtually on death's door anyway.
It will take quite some time before we have a clear picture

Exactly the same argument I've been making in defence of what London did. At the moment we have benefitted from taking the early big hit, so now is not the time to say we got it wrong. Only time will determine that and my opinion is that will show we got it right, albeit by accident rather than design.
.

 

[flecc]

Technically, I think that in Europe, 1,000,000,000 is a milliard, so 10 milliards.
In the USA its different and I know that our MP's prefer USA figures when it is to their advantage and EU figures when it is to their disadvantage

Not just MPs, the US numbering is virtually universally accepted now and I think it should be in our globalised internet linked world. Different languages make no sense in today's world.
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[flecc]

I would dispute that the Nightingales were a waste.

They cost a small fortune and were virtually unused, so that is factually a waste. Worse still, we will have to spend a lot again to return their buildings to their correct original purpose.

They were a panic measure in mid epidemic, started far too late to deliver their purpose, just like every other measure we took to control the outbreak.

So again, once it was obvious we'd missed the boat at the outset with very late lockdown etc, I believe it was better to let the disease run its course to get it over with quickly, without all the futile and unproductive panic expenditure which has done so much harm.
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[Danidl]

Most of our delivery people are very sensible - something like put it on the mat, ring the bell and walk off. They do look back to check you are taking it in! (Have to say, most of them are friendly, efficient and sensible. Unlike where I used to live.)

Same here!!

 

[oyster]

They cost a small fortune and were virtually unused, so that is factually a waste. Worse still, we will have to spend a lot again to return their buildings to their correct original purpose.

At the time when they actually theoretically became available, I was under the impression that there were several issues which meant they could not be used very much. Including lack of appropriately trained staff (most potential staff were already working in existing hospitals), transport issues (every trip requiring a full clean of the vehicle used), and limited facilities.

Might have been better to use them for the less severely ill, non-covid-19 patients. Such as those recuperating in various ways.

 

[flecc]

Might have been better to use them for the less severely ill, non-covid-19 patients. Such as those recuperating in various ways.

After the press were critical about the lack of use, they did just this, shipping in a small number of recuperating patients from hospitals and inviting the press to watch it happen! Pathetic.
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[oldgroaner]

They cost a small fortune and were virtually unused, so that is factually a waste. Worse still, we will have to spend a lot again to return their buildings to their correct original purpose.

They were a panic measure in mid epidemic, started far too late to deliver their purpose, just like every other measure we took to control the outbreak.

So again, once it was obvious we'd missed the boat at the outset with very late lockdown etc, I believe it was better to let the disease run its course to get it over with quickly, without all the futile and unproductive panic expenditure which has done so much harm.
.

The only drawback with your assessment is there is no guarantee it is over and frankly 65,000 dead is the important cost the monetary one is irrelevant, they can soon fiddle the books.

 

[flecc]

The only drawback with your assessment is there is no guarantee it is over and frankly 65,000 dead is the important cost the monetary one is irrelevant, they can soon fiddle the books.

Of course it's not over, but that's the point I'm making, all that cost AND 65,000 dead. Sweden managed the deaths without the costs and I'm betting they'll be overall better off in the end.

There'll be no book fiddling, it's other people's money which will have to be paid back. We'll all be paying that cost for many years as you'll see when your pension is taxed more.
.

 

[RossG]

Not just the tube being different. The densely packed living circumstance we have for many are very different from there. And Portsmouth didn't have Heathrow and London City airports pouring in thousands of people from corona hotspots. Nor a Eurostar terminal doing likewise. Nor 9000 buses.

But I'm not arguing that London was better at defensive measures, it wasn't. Sadiq Khan's actions didn't happen until weeks after the outbreak began here. I'm just arguing the deaths versus costs differences in approach, yet no-one in here seem to understand that, so just they argue about something else as you've done.
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The problem was because those 9000 buses, Eurostar and the airport traffic carried on like nothing had changed London was hit hard in the first place and it was avoidable, next time it will be unless another lunatic even crazier than Boris takes the helm.
Portsmouth was a unique case, as it's an Island (sort of) you don't need to pass through it to go anywhere which is why the traffic is so bad. During rush hour which lasts about two hours everybody piles in, then 4.30 - 6.30 they all pile out again but as I say it handled lockdown well because by and large people behaved. They didn't at first until they saw people dropping like nine pins then it all changed.
I don't give any credence to the lives v cost equation, in fact I don't believe it even exists as an option to consider.
We as a country have been slowly swirling down the plug hole for years anyway and covid is a good opportunity to bury bad news. What better time to shut up shop kick your workforce into touch and blame covid , many businesses like John Lewis were on the way out anyway and more to follow no doubt.