Brexit, for once some facts.

[Fingers]

Thanks Fingers.
Its incredible that some on here label me a bigot for making points I have. Its the opppsite of bigotry.. Dont get how anybody can not see fault in a democratic system which operates at 42% turnout (One country was 16%) and then elects/appoints people from a single Ethnic background (almost).
Even the EU leaders would say both need to change, but not on here.
Its this refusal to accept there is dire need for change why we must leave.
If folk dont accept change must happen it simply will not.,which is what has happened over last 20 years. Nothing has changed.

Their argument seems to be that we can foster change from within. Except that's never happened in nearly 50 years.

The only thing that happens is the project grinds on to the federalist nirvana whether the people want it or not. Each treaty is done as a fait au complete by the same bunch of elites. The jowly old white men. Or angry old white men.

 

[Woosh]

TM has rejected JC's offer for now and Labour still keeps the possibility of a second referendum open.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/feb/08/second-referendum-necessary-if-no-brexit-agreement-says-john-mcdonnell-politics-live

 

[OxygenJames]

OG, I, ve put you on ignore, and appreciate it if you could reciprocate the blessing.

That won't work and you know it.

 

[OxygenJames]

TM has rejected JC's offer for now and Labour still keeps the possibility of a second referendum open.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/feb/08/second-referendum-necessary-if-no-brexit-agreement-says-john-mcdonnell-politics-live

Corbyn will do everything to make sure that when the music stops its the Torys who are holding the package.

Labour want nothing to do with this birth (to switch metaphors for a moment). They want to make sure all the negative feelings people have about it will forever be associated with the Torys and not them.

It makes good political sense.

 

[OxygenJames]

Their argument seems to be that we can foster change from within. Except that's never happened in nearly 50 years.

The only thing that happens is the project grinds on to the federalist nirvana whether the people want it or not. Each treaty is done as a fait au complete by the same bunch of elites. The jowly old white men. Or angry old white men.

I'd say Europe as a whole (and that includes us though it would be worse if we stay in the EU) - is on a downward trajectory. China is the rising sun. Germany is close to going into recession - they can not continue with their export led economy when the credit is starting to dry up and people are slowly but surely stopping buying new stuff they don't need from expensive manufacturers like we have throughout the continent. There's just too much debt. And there comes a point at which borrowing more does not have the impact on GDP that it once had. We're close to reaching that point.

 

[Woosh]

Corbyn will do everything to make sure that when the music stops its the Torys who are holding the package.

Labour want nothing to do with this birth (to switch metaphors for a moment). They want to make sure all the negative feelings people have about it will forever be associated with the Torys and not them.

It makes good political sense.

What makes sense is JC's offer can get majority support from MPs.

James, you can't continue to ignore the 48%, Scotland and NI.

 

[Zlatan]

That won't work and you know it.

It did for a short while couple of weeks ago.. I, m not responding to OG anymore, its utterly pointless. He misses the points, argues about issues not raised... But no doubt thinks same of me..

 

[Fingers]

Thanks Fingers.
Its incredible that some on here label me a bigot for making points I have. Its the opppsite of bigotry.. Dont get how anybody can not see fault in a democratic system which operates at 42% turnout (One country was 16%) and then elects/appoints people from a single Ethnic background (almost).
Even the EU leaders would say both need to change, but not on here.
Its this refusal to accept there is dire need for change why we must leave.
If folk dont accept change must happen it simply will not.,which is what has happened over last 20 years. Nothing has changed.

You seem to have upset the Kiwi.
Great isnt it, our intolerant nature accepts a kiwi living in France passing judgement on Brexit.. Ironic really. I wonder what his French mates would be saying in his local bar if he was slagging off French.??

As far as racism, equal opportunities and diversity are concerned UK is 50 years infront of anywhere I, ve been in Europe.
Said it before, if you think UK is racist for gods sake stay there. You, ll be gobsmacked in many parts of EU.

I think it was quite telling yesterday when you were patiently explaining your more than valid observation of the make up of the ruling elite that you were told you 'had a chip on your shoulder'.

The Groaner knew what he was doing there and fair play to you for not biting.

It's weird how nasty these remainers become when their utopia is exposed for what it is.

 

[Danidl]

No there are not. Its exactly why EU is not working. You and fan boys on here are blind. You refuse to see any fault just as EU does. So status quo remains. The white males of EU such as Junker just carry on.
You call EU democratic with a turnout of 42% overall. (,as low as 16% in some regions) Yet say our government and specifically the referendum are not. Just because it suits you. No objectivity at all.
You call it unimportant that EU lacks democratic legitimacy and leader diversity. And then question why people voted against EU saying they had no real reason to do so.
You dismiss these as arguments against the EU and in doing so simply reinforce leavers reasons for wanting to leave.
The EU has needed to change for years. It has failed to do so.
It should have been a priority to get turn out up by involving people in the mechanisms. The reverse has happened. It has become more disconnected and turn out dropped accordingly.
Thats probably biggest reason we are in this mess now.
EU is intransigent, both in its dealings with May and in the way it has refused to tackle low turn out and MEP/Commisioner diversity.
Folk want out, away from that.
They want a government that both represents them and reflects all their cultural beliefs. The EU does neither. If you dont see that you really are blind.
And this is the very essence of the thread.

..But the EU is working. It is democratic. It was not intansigent. The EU has changed it has enlarged from 6 member states to 28 and with a few more knocking on the door. Every assertion you have made in this posting can be challanged .
So I have a challenge for you. Identify any one EU directive which discriminates actively against people of colour or people of different gender.,who are within the 28 nation states of the EU.
Were the EU an undemocratic organisation, it would not have entertained the concept of a right for the UK to secede. Contrast that with the US Constitution ,and the decisions of the US Supreme Court

 

[OxygenJames]

It did for a short while couple of weeks ago.. I, m not responding to OG anymore, its utterly pointless. He misses the points, argues about issues not raised... But no doubt thinks same of me..

He is infuriating for sure - but there are holes in the tarp of his defence mechanism (I sense he has a keen sense of humour for example).

He will at times allow an idea in and it is sometimes possible to engage him constructively.

But don't expect him to change. That's a fools game.

 

[Fingers]

What makes sense is JC's offer can get majority support from MPs.

James, you can't continue to ignore the 48%, Scotland and NI.

I thought it was interesting on QT last night. We heard from the silent majority of Scotland where they were quite clear that people only want referendums when they win and will not accept them until they do.

Sturgeon and the SNP are becoming quite hated up there atm.

If the 48% were leavers do you think there would be any of this hand wringing and gnashing of teeth?

We had the vote. Another one will be far more ruinous than the hardest of hard Brexit to this country.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Some people (me included) can not accept to see lies and half truths repeated over and over until they are accepted as fact by the uneducated masses.

How the EU works, and why, is largely documented so saying the contrary repeatedly will not change the facts. The EU has a legal obligation to follow the rules. The rules were written by the countries that founded the EU. Those countries are all democracies so voters from those countries are ultimately responsable for the written rules of the EU.

That may seem simplistic but it is fact. Deny the facts and you just make yourselves look foolish. We know that many of you are not fools so what is your agenda? Money stashed away in offshore bank accounts? A yearning to go back to the good old days of dictatorship?

 

[Fingers]

Some people (me included) can not accept to see lies and half truths repeated over and over until they are accepted as fact by the uneducated masses.

How the EU works, and why, is largely documented so saying the contrary repeatedly will not change the facts. The EU has a legal obligation to follow the rules. The rules were written by the countries that founded the EU. Those countries are all democracies so voters from those countries are ultimately responsable for the written rules of the EU.

That may seem simplistic but it is fact. Deny the facts and you just make yourselves look foolish. We know that many of you are not fools so what is your agenda? Money stashed away in offshore bank accounts? A yearning to go back to the good old days of dictatorship?

*cannot

 

[Zlatan]

https://www.politico.eu/article/black-mps-back-italian-mep-in-racism-row-cecile-kyenge/
This is the world for the few black MEPs.
To sum up an Italian MP referred to her as an orangutan. (in a poster) She retorted he was a racist. He then filed for deformation saying she had brought his party into disrepute. The judge upheld his complaint.
Then surprise surprise there are so few non White MEPs...

 

[flecc]

My only point in this is EU has problems around quite serious issues. Diversity, equal opportunities, race and democratic legitamacy. Its quite blatant yet supporters on here, and ib general, fail to see any of these faults.

You are a liar, time after time repeating the same lie even though you know it isn't true that we remainers think the EU is perfect.

You know it isn't true because we post that we know the EU isn't perfect and has many faults. I was doing so more than once to you only yesterday. I've even previously acknowledged that those governing the EU do not represent all the population and none of us have ever disagreed that the EU lacks black and female representation. I've even quoted to you my experiences of witnessing extreme racism in mainland Europe.

But as we have explained to you repeatedly, these are the faults of the nations concerned and things the EU has no power to alter because they don't and can't run those countries internal affairs.

Yesterday I asked you what you would do to correct the EU's democratic deficiencies, but as I expected, you have no answer because there isn't one.

You are the one who needs to acknowledge that simple truth and stop repeatedly ranting about the lack of EU black and female representation which we all know exists. We don't need to be told that, we'd just like you to give a solution.

We're waiting.
.

 

[Zlatan]

Some people (me included) can not accept to see lies and half truths repeated over and over until they are accepted as fact by the uneducated masses.

How the EU works, and why, is largely documented so saying the contrary repeatedly will not change the facts. The EU has a legal obligation to follow the rules. The rules were written by the countries that founded the EU. Those countries are all democracies so voters from those countries are ultimately responsable for the written rules of the EU.

That may seem simplistic but it is fact. Deny the facts and you just make yourselves look foolish. We know that many of you are not fools so what is your agenda? Money stashed away in offshore bank accounts? A yearning to go back to the good old days of dictatorship?

Fair points.
What turn out for EU elections would be acceptable for you kiwi?
How would you achieve them?

The EU has a population of around 500 million. Within that it is estimated there are 100 million people of non white descent. (Asians, Indians, African descent etc etc)
What %age of EU commision /council do you think should be of none white descent. At moment its zero.
What %age do you think should be reflected in MEPs?

Flecc. Answer above and stop calling me a liar. I am not and have never accused anyone of doing same.

You always give same reply passing on responsibility to individual countries. But that is the system EU are using, they are accepting the power, its their responsibility to make system more representative.
You wont answer above questions because it automatically becomes an admission of failure on part of EU.
But go ahead answer the questions. But you wont.
A system that elects /appoints on the basis of 42 % of the electorate a set of people from one specific strata, race, colour, gender by any test is flawed, no matter who is to blame. How can you defend it.

As for me correcting EU deficiencies, why should I. I want to leave.
But since you ask, I must have missed question yesterday. The same way our Government is trying. Putting democracy in touch with people, providing a connect and not a disconnect as EU do.
But, like I, ve said hundreds of times brfore, these are my arguments for leaving. Its upto pro EU supporters to both accept the criticism, explore solutions and convince leavers change will happen.
All remainers do is call us liars, go back under your stone, and bigots rather than looking at the real problems and solving them.
No matter what you or AK say EU does have a democratic deficiency. It is not representitive of its population. You change it and get back. In mean time I want out.
Read the link I posted earlier and put yourself in that poor ladies position.That is your Europe led by an all white male government. And you dont see the connect there either.

 

[Danidl]

I think it was quite telling yesterday when you were patiently explaining your more than valid observation of the make up of the ruling elite that you were told you 'had a chip on your shoulder'.

The Groaner knew what he was doing there and fair play to you for not biting.

It's weird how nasty these remainers become when their utopia is exposed for what it is.

The EU is not utopia. Can you identify any posting from myself, flecc,OG etc who have identified it those terms. You may be familiar with concept of "a strawman arguement "

 

[OxygenJames]

What makes sense is JC's offer can get majority support from MPs.

James, you can't continue to ignore the 48%, Scotland and NI.

The trouble is his offer - as I understand it - means a permanent customs union. And so far as I also understand it - that's something May doesn't want to entertain because she knows that we all know - that that simply isn't Brexit - and she knows we (ie the 52%) will never buy that it is.

 

[Fingers]

The EU is not utopia. Can you identify any posting from myself, flecc,OG etc who have identified it those terms. You may be familiar with concept of "a strawman arguement "

I've heard the phrase but can't say I understand it completely tbh.

 

[Fingers]

The trouble is his offer - as I understand it - means a permanent customs union. And so far as I also understand it - that's something May doesn't want to entertain because she knows that we all know - that that simply isn't Brexit - and she knows we (ie the 52%) will never buy that it is.

Yeah. It's insane. Unless of course we get all that plus we get to make our own deals, keep the fishing rights have free movement but control our borders, our people get the same as EU folks get over here. We maintain science and engineering partnerships.

Then we're talking.

Ain't gonna happen though is it?