Brexit, for once some facts.

[oyster]

one thing bugs me a little about the idea that the EU makes their members vote again and again until arriving at the right result. Between the votes, the EU make changes to the treaty to win over doubters.
Does this mean that the method is anti-democratic?

I am not sure about this. Here are two scenarios:

1. Vote on leaving the EU once in 2016, follow through then a few years down the line, 2025, a new government sets up another vote to rejoin this time.

2. Vote again and again until arriving at a clear margin (like 60/40) before leaving.

Which one is more democratic?

Your questioning is a good thing.

I have often thought, even suggested, that we perhaps could have an annual referendum EU membership. Quite possibly, some years the result will suggest leaving whilst other years it will be remain.

The critical bit is that we don't suddenly jump out. We reflect. We wait for a succession of leave results before making irrevocable decisions. Between referendums we analyse why the vote went that way. We try to make changes so that everyone is happy.

Of course, this is completely pie in the sky and wishful thinking. People won't engage in such a referendum every year. Politicians will ignore - to the best of their ability.

 

[oldgroaner]

one thing bugs me a little about the idea that the EU makes their members vote again and again until arriving at the right result. Between the votes, the EU make changes to the treaty to win over doubters.
Does this mean that the method is anti-democratic?

I am not sure about this. Here are two scenarios:

1. Vote on leaving the EU once in 2016, follow through then a few years down the line, 2025, a new government sets up another vote to rejoin this time.

2. Vote again and again until arriving at a clear margin (like 60/40) before leaving.

Which one is more democratic?

Difficult choice, but unless I can vote posthumously (if necessary)
Misquouting John Cleese(ever so slightIy)
"lets have a decision before one of us dies "
means I would go for choice 2

 

[tommie]

As I explained elsewhere the sort of post you just made is complete nonsense.,
These are your words not mine
" Because someone has a different opinion to you, that does not make them a clown.
You made that statement, not me.
Those who still cling to the notion that Brexit is a good idea are never going to change that attitude, and nothing you or I can do will change that.
Trying to blame people like myself for the attitude of leave supporters is so obviously wrong is is pitiful, for how many actually have engaged in conversation with someone of a differing opinion to their own such as myself?
There is absolutely no proof to support that , no evidence at all.
This is a typical Urban myth
Opposition to Brexit is unaffected by this smoke screen of an excuse, one of many used in support of Brexit
Try to understand this simple fact: if leave voters could be be induced to change their minds by any facts, they would have done so long ago, as you seem to have.
Are you proposing that some of the others are so simple minded that a few kind words and gentle persuasion will con them where facts have utterly failed?
No amount of "Empathising will take these people with us" as you naively imagine.
Two years hasn't made a difference has it?
Is your theory that that is the case because someone belittled them?

Has the point escaped you that that was the very accusation that Gove used to enrage them against remain and engage them with the leave campaign?
Ironic that a charlatan reverse engineered that lie to act as a powerful recruiting ploy, and he did it right after the referendum result before attitudes has even had a chance to harden. So it was in fact untrue!
And it was so effective you now trot it out again?
Remarkable how it has become fixed in the public imagination as if it is biblical truth.
It was a confidence trick employed by Gove and very effective.

And here we are more than two years down line and you are so convinced by this shill that you point it at me as some sort of justification of your view point?

And what defences are actually being levelled on here on behalf of the leave point of view?
Nothing other that posts intended to be controversial lacking convincing factual content.
People who chose to vote leave are not clowns, but people who try to be disruptive because they lack ammunition in support of their side of the argument and seek to derail the debate deserve to be described as what they are, Clowns.

The country is divided because Brexit is divisive, not the attitude of people to it and each other until is is finished with that division will remain.

 

[oldgroaner]

View attachment 28741

Good isn't it Tommie!

 

[tommie]

Good isn't it Tommie!

Sure is!!!

 

[Woosh]

View attachment 28741

it's going to be delayed. Your clock will need to be reset.

 

[Danidl]

a free vote will be damaging to the conservative party.
Its MPs are more remainers than leavers, against the wishes of its membership.

Why would that concern anyone in Europe?.
The only immediate effect would be that the veto of the DUP would be removed. It would also require that the Labour party allowed a free vote.
However, I cannot follow the logic,which assumes a majority in the country for some deal, possibly a majority for Brexit (in sime flavour), and the statenent that the Conservative members do not share the opinions of the representatives they selected to represent them.

 

[tommie]

Can't think why Airbus supports remaining lol - ps. illegal subsidies = Bribes!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44120525
EU paid Airbus billions in illegal subsidies, WTO rules
The World Trade Organization (WTO) has ruled that the European Union (EU) failed to comply with requests to end subsidies for Airbus.

The US Trade Representative (USTR) said the ruling in the dispute opens the way for placing tariffs on EU goods.

The USTR argued that European countries had given $22bn in state aid to Airbus to help launch its A380 and A350 jets, causing losses to US rival Boeing.


The decision authorises the US to retaliate against Europe with sanctions, the amount of which would be determined in another WTO decision.

Boeing said it is expecting the "largest-ever WTO authorisation of retaliatory tariffs" - which would mean billions of dollars.

The retaliation can apply to a range of goods and could come as early as 2019, analysts said.

 

[Woosh]

Why would that concern anyone in Europe?.

why? because legislation must be proposed by the government. It follows that the UK can only choose some destination that is in tune with the governing party.
the ROI has to take the internal politics of the conservatives into account until the next GE.

 

[Woosh]

The retaliation can apply to a range of goods and could come as early as 2019, analysts said.

don't hold your breath, that trade dispute started 15 years ago, still on going and won't be solved anytime soon.
All that proves is WTO doesn't have much teeth because it can't apply pressure. Big fish eat small fish under WTO.

 

[Danidl]

why? because legislation must be proposed by the government. It follows that the UK can only choose some destination that is in tune with the governing party.
the ROI has to take the internal politics of the conservatives into account until the next GE.

The conservative government in the UK has negotiated a Deal with the EU. That Deal is still part of Their policy. An unpopular part of that deal is a non time limited nature of a backstop affecting the entire UK. By limiting that Backstop to the island of Ireland, the majority of that unpopularity can be removed.(one might be led to understand)).
Now either the British Government is supreme or the British Parliament is Supreme.. which is it?.

 

[Woosh]

Now either the British Government is supreme or the British Parliament is Supreme.. which is it?.

for practical purpose, the government is supreme.
and that means the governing party and their rich donors.
(I am not saying that they are corrupt, it's just that the setup looks a bit dodgy for my liking)

 

[oyster]

OK - so just another headline...

UK firms plan mass exodus if May allows no-deal Brexit
Business group warns that companies are getting ready to shift operations abroad
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/26/brexit-british-firms-mass-exodus-no-deal

 

[Kudoscycles]

aren't there a significant amount of businesses in this country who have nothing to do with the EU but are subject to all the rules and regulations. Maybe they will be glad to see the back of them and thrive without EU restrictions. Of course we don't hear from mant of these small companies, just the big ones who love the endless supply of cheap labour

I don’t know of any business who is looking forward to no deal Brexit.
The EU has done some good work over harmonising standards through Europe including the U.K. Who is going to do that work after we Brexit?
As you say the small businesses are not heard,but when the redundancies start you will certainly hear from the workers who lose their jobs.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

try talking consumer protections to all the young people in southern europe who are out of work

The weakness of the £ against the US dollar and Euro has already pushed up prices.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

another funny thing I heard in Andrew Neil's This Week. He asked: if there is a second referendum, the Leave slogan will be 'Tell them again' what will remain slogan be?
Sam Gyimah: 'Trust them again'.

BTW, have you noticed the right wing press has gone suddenly quiet.

And Theresa May has gone quiet.
Tuesday could be interesting.....Coopers amendment will force May to make a direction change......if she continues with appeasing the ERG who want no deal then parliament will take her power away....if she decides on a single market and customs union then Parliament will support her including Labour.
It’s all about Maths,the most the ERG can muster is maximum 100,Parliament can muster 500 plus. May’s deal could include a CU and SM.....it’s probably her only way of holding onto power. It will cause massive split in the Tory party but that was what the referendum was about in the first place,I say bye bye to Rees-Mogg.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

Sure is!!!

Tommie....do you really think we are leaving on March 29 ?

 

[anotherkiwi]

Tommie....do you really think we are leaving on March 29 ?

He doesn't think. <- Full stop

Boeing doesn't get US govt subsidies either...

 

[oldgroaner]

Can't think why Airbus supports remaining lol - ps. illegal subsidies = Bribes!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44120525
EU paid Airbus billions in illegal subsidies, WTO rules
The World Trade Organization (WTO) has ruled that the European Union (EU) failed to comply with requests to end subsidies for Airbus.

The US Trade Representative (USTR) said the ruling in the dispute opens the way for placing tariffs on EU goods.

The USTR argued that European countries had given $22bn in state aid to Airbus to help launch its A380 and A350 jets, causing losses to US rival Boeing.


The decision authorises the US to retaliate against Europe with sanctions, the amount of which would be determined in another WTO decision.

Boeing said it is expecting the "largest-ever WTO authorisation of retaliatory tariffs" - which would mean billions of dollars.

The retaliation can apply to a range of goods and could come as early as 2019, analysts said.

Would those be Boeing analysts Tommie? you know the ones who manage the huge Government Subsidies Boeing enjoy?
https://globalnews.ca/news/3773916/bombardier-boeing-subsidies/
Bombardier got subsidies? Boeing received $64B from the U.S. government

So far they have been trying this con for no less than 15 years!

 

[oyster]

Would those be Boeing analysts Tommie? you know the ones who manage the huge Government Subsidies Boeing enjoy?
https://globalnews.ca/news/3773916/bombardier-boeing-subsidies/
Bombardier got subsidies? Boeing received $64B from the U.S. government

So far they have been trying this con for no less than 15 years!

Your link nicely (albeit, briefly) covered the US military spending with Boeing and associated issues.