Brexit, for once some facts.

[tillson]

It is quite disturbing that in 21st century Britain, parts of society have to rely on food banks to survive. The "pull your self up by your own bootstraps" brigade will always blame the individuals for their own circumstances, but it couldn't be further from the truth. I spend a bit of my time, "helping out" and it is saddening to see a whole broad spectrum of society that now have to rely on the good will of others in order to live day to day. People are encouraged daily, if not hourly, if you watch television, to take on debt. Smiling faces at the opportunity to borrow at a crippling 1275% interest loan to get your car fixed, which undoubtedly will be on some other form of finance. I don't see any government advice warning of the pit falls. The government who coined the term "JAM's", as a follow on from the previous financial disasters under Labour, haven't got past the blame game, and I'm afraid enough years have passed for that one not to " wash" anymore. I live in what could be described as an affluent area, and its surprising that in the long time I have lived here, 2017 has been the only year I have ever seen house repo's. There isn't enough money to fix the NHS, but there always is enough to prop up banks, and drop bombs on people in far off lands. Blair is trying to drum up support for a reverse Brexit, but doesn't realise that he is too toxic for anyone to listen, along with most of his red tie Tories.

Whilst I agree with much of the content of this post, I don't think that everything can be laid at the door of the government, and in fairness I don't think you were trying to say that.

There is an area of a town near to where I live which consists, in the main, of social housing. Many of the residents in that area don't work and there is a food bank at one of these modern churches. I've never been inside, but maybe I should.

What I have difficulty with is the state of the gardens and the general untidiness of the area in which these people live. I think to myself, the person residing in that house has a place to live, they don't work and have more disposable time than I have, yet the garden and the general area is nothing short of a $h!t tip. Maybe some of the residents are disabled and can't work in the garden, but not all of them and it is all of the gardens which are in a disgusting state. Even, my 94 year old neighbour gets out and does a bit. Not much admittedly, but the state of mind and willingness is present.

Where I live, litter accumulates and weeds grow in the verges and a nearby ally. I, and others, get out there with a bag and a trowel and pick up the litter and dig out the weeds. I also have a huge garden which I manage to keep looking nice in addition to working full time, running a part time business and maintaining my own home. Why can't the people who aren't working and living in shitsville do the same? They've got more time than me, so they should be living somewhere akin to a Royal Park. Are they idle and have no desire to improve on their lot? Content to let Jeremy Corbin fleece ordinary working people and tip the spoils on their social housing driveways?

I have also seen, first hand, cigarette smoking people leave a betting shop and enter the afore mentioned church food bank next door. I am not saying that this applies to everyone and I know there are low income families who, as a result of circumstances beyond their control, have found themselves in a desperate situation. However, some people find themselves using food banks, living in squaller and unable to find work because they are useless idle twats fit for nothing other than being thrown into the skip of life.

I am also getting increasingly irritated by the "young people can't buy a house because all the older people are buying them up" garbage. When I bought my first house it cost me £30000 and I was earning just over £6000 per year before tax. I saved a £6000 deposit, 1 years pre-tax wage by driving a rubbish car, not going on holiday and cycling and running (cheap social outings) instead of boozing. I wanted to do the other things, but I saw the longer term benefits. My mortgage for £24000 was at around 11% interest and the repayments consumed my entire wage and we had to live of my wife's low clerical worker's wage. I really could have done with a food bank and we literally had to go without heating at times, but as they do, things get better.

Today, the financial situation for young people isn't much different, it's just that the numbers have scaled upwards. What has changed is that many young people want the house, the car, the holidays, the £1000 iPhone, the new furniture and the high disposable income from day 1. Well boo-hoo, it isn't going to happen. If they want a better car than I drive, a more exotic holiday and a better iPhone, that's fine, they can rent one of my houses.

 

[flecc]

Whilst I agree with much of the content of this post, I don't think that everything can be laid at the door of the government, and in fairness I don't think you were trying to say that.

There is an area of a town near to where I live which consists, in the main, of social housing. Many of the residents in that area don't work and there is a food bank at one of these modern churches. I've never been inside, but maybe I should.

What I have difficulty with is the state of the gardens and the general untidiness of the area in which these people live. I think to myself, the person residing in that house has a place to live, they don't work and have more disposable time than I have, yet the garden and the general area is nothing short of a $h!t tip. Maybe some of the residents are disabled and can't work in the garden, but not all of them and it is all of the gardens which are in a disgusting state. Even, my 94 year old neighbour gets out and does a bit. Not much admittedly, but the state of mind and willingness is present.

Where I live, litter accumulates and weeds grow in the verges and a nearby ally. I, and others, get out there with a bag and a trowel and pick up the litter and dig out the weeds. I also have a huge garden which I manage to keep looking nice in addition to working full time, running a part time business and maintaining my own home. Why can't the people who aren't working and living in shitsville do the same? They've got more time than me, so they should be living somewhere akin to a Royal Park. Are they idle and have no desire to improve on their lot? Content to let Jeremy Corbin fleece ordinary working people and tip the spoils on their social housing driveways?

I have also seen, first hand, cigarette smoking people leave a betting shop and enter the afore mentioned church food bank next door. I am not saying that this applies to everyone and I know there are low income families who, as a result of circumstances beyond their control, have found themselves in a desperate situation. However, some people find themselves using food banks, living in squaller and unable to find work because they are useless idle twats fit for nothing other than being thrown into the skip of life.

I am also getting increasingly irritated by the "young people can't buy a house because all the older people are buying them up" garbage. When I bought my first house it cost me £30000 and I was earning just over £6000 per year before tax. I saved a £6000 deposit, 1 years pre-tax wage by driving a rubbish car, not going on holiday and cycling and running (cheap social outings) instead of boozing. I wanted to do the other things, but I saw the longer term benefits. My mortgage for £24000 was at around 11% interest and the repayments consumed my entire wage and we had to live of my wife's low clerical worker's wage. I really could have done with a food bank and we literally had to go without heating at times, but as they do, things get better.

Today, the financial situation for young people isn't much different, it's just that the numbers have scaled upwards. What has changed is that many young people want the house, the car, the holidays, the £1000 iPhone, the new furniture and the high disposable income from day 1. Well boo-hoo, it isn't going to happen. If they want a better car than I drive, a more exotic holiday and a better iPhone, that's fine, they can rent one of my houses.

Very similar for me Tillson. I first bought long before you but the ratios similar. The property was 5.9 times my income and I'd saved from 19 years old on and had accumulated enough over several years by living at bare existence standards to pay a 25% deposit.

As you rightly say, today's young people just aren't prepared to go without for years to eventually achieve something. So they continue to spend everything they can and just hope that things will eventually turn out ok. Of course they won't, and the cost to many of them will be a continuously declining standard of living and dissatisfaction in later years.

To me that's very foolish, much better to end as I have by long being in considerable comfort and able to look back at the hardships of my earlier life and know how much I've achieved.

That said there is a place for much more enlightened social policies than we have at present, but they do need to be well governed, something we don't seem very good at doing.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

Whilst I agree with much of the content of this post, I don't think that everything can be laid at the door of the government, and in fairness I don't think you were trying to say that.

There is an area of a town near to where I live which consists, in the main, of social housing. Many of the residents in that area don't work and there is a food bank at one of these modern churches. I've never been inside, but maybe I should.

What I have difficulty with is the state of the gardens and the general untidiness of the area in which these people live. I think to myself, the person residing in that house has a place to live, they don't work and have more disposable time than I have, yet the garden and the general area is nothing short of a $h!t tip. Maybe some of the residents are disabled and can't work in the garden, but not all of them and it is all of the gardens which are in a disgusting state. Even, my 94 year old neighbour gets out and does a bit. Not much admittedly, but the state of mind and willingness is present.

Where I live, litter accumulates and weeds grow in the verges and a nearby ally. I, and others, get out there with a bag and a trowel and pick up the litter and dig out the weeds. I also have a huge garden which I manage to keep looking nice in addition to working full time, running a part time business and maintaining my own home. Why can't the people who aren't working and living in shitsville do the same? They've got more time than me, so they should be living somewhere akin to a Royal Park. Are they idle and have no desire to improve on their lot? Content to let Jeremy Corbin fleece ordinary working people and tip the spoils on their social housing driveways?

I have also seen, first hand, cigarette smoking people leave a betting shop and enter the afore mentioned church food bank next door. I am not saying that this applies to everyone and I know there are low income families who, as a result of circumstances beyond their control, have found themselves in a desperate situation. However, some people find themselves using food banks, living in squaller and unable to find work because they are useless idle twats fit for nothing other than being thrown into the skip of life.

I am also getting increasingly irritated by the "young people can't buy a house because all the older people are buying them up" garbage. When I bought my first house it cost me £30000 and I was earning just over £6000 per year before tax. I saved a £6000 deposit, 1 years pre-tax wage by driving a rubbish car, not going on holiday and cycling and running (cheap social outings) instead of boozing. I wanted to do the other things, but I saw the longer term benefits. My mortgage for £24000 was at around 11% interest and the repayments consumed my entire wage and we had to live of my wife's low clerical worker's wage. I really could have done with a food bank and we literally had to go without heating at times, but as they do, things get better.

Today, the financial situation for young people isn't much different, it's just that the numbers have scaled upwards. What has changed is that many young people want the house, the car, the holidays, the £1000 iPhone, the new furniture and the high disposable income from day 1. Well boo-hoo, it isn't going to happen. If they want a better car than I drive, a more exotic holiday and a better iPhone, that's fine, they can rent one of my houses.

And your solution to motivating these people is what exactly? these are after all the main supporters of Brexit,who feel the Government isn't doing enough for them because the EU prevents them doing so.

And now have high hopes of better times.

Tell me how will they react when they are greeted with a "Tough love policy?"
It's all very well taking a moral stance, but it is quite likely as I and others have predicted all along Simplistic answers such as putting them under pressure will simply result in Social Chaos.

Someone with more than half a brain needs to come up with an answer that will not only make "Brexit" work, but not prove to be a lit fuse that blows the top off social peace.

Pointing out their shortcomings will get the same reaction that pointing out the drawbacks of Brexit does.

They will feel their intelligence, indeed their very self esteem is under attack.
Brexit will offer nothing but "Blood sweat,toil and Tears" as Churchill once said

 

[Danidl]

Very similar for me Tillson. I first bought long before you but the ratios similar. The property was 5.9 times my income and I'd saved from 19 years old on and had accumulated enough over several years by living at bare existence standards to pay a 25% deposit.

As you rightly say, today's young people just aren't prepared to go without for years to eventually achieve something. So they continue to spend everything they can and just hope that things will eventually turn out ok. Of course they won't, and the cost to many of them will be a continuously declining standard of living and dissatisfaction in later years.

To me that's very foolish, much better to end as I have by long being in considerable comfort and able to look back at the hardships of my earlier life and know how much I've achieved.

That said there is a place for much more enlightened social policies than we have at present, but they do need to be well governed, something we don't seem very good at doing.
.

In my case, the repayments went up to I think 12.5% , and the property being outside of a city was less at 20K, was just 4 times salary.... And of course we were without carpet for 1 year, furniture was on a needs basis, often hand me downs. .
But the big difference now is that there is a consensus or conspiracy by the political classes. If people are consuming they are generating economic activity, if people are getting things from the state, they are subservient and compliant. Paradoxically its because these young people are consuming that you, tilson and myself are better off than we would otherwise be.

Tilson, i have often wondered similarly to you why the poorer areas are so run down, when a tittle elbow grease would greatly enhance them... My conclusion is that the inhabitants are feeling disempowered, hopeless and frightened. In the event that anyone attempts to do something like plant flowers , a vandal will come around and rip them up, or the social pressure to conform will become evident. They are at the mercy of gangs who prey on their own. The women, who would normally be a influence for good are being downtrodden.. check on the distances required to bring the shopping home ,the range of goods available in their local shops, the operational efficiency of the buses and the lifts in tall buildings.

 

[Zlatan]

Good posts all 3 of you.( OG,s post crossed mine, not included in this comment)
Question is does Brexit really have a bearing on any of this ? We,ve got where we are with a succession of poor governments and membership of EU..
Was listening this morning to how " drunk wagons" are to be put in operation in most major cities, to accommodate and," treat" all the brainless morons getting legless. Why should my tax be used for that ? It will continue in or out of EU and in all likely hood under either EU guidance or a Labour government this sort of stupid " caring" will increase.
All the stuff we moan about in most cases will be totally unaffected by Brexit, so why are leavers targeted on here for all the woes ?
I paid £12 k for my first house, was earning £2k a year. Interest rate was 14% and couldn't get a mortgage on my own salary. Same house is now worth circa £165k. Interestingly that house is now occupied by a family of 5. Nobody works yet they afford foreign holidays and have rent paid by government. (I still own house but now rent it out) This family appear lots better off than my family did when we lived there , even tho we had 2 wage earners . Dont tell me our country is not caring, it cares too much..its just we fail to identify the real desperate and the system accommodates those that know how to manipulate it.
All the idealist left wing BS will just make things worse. The Royal " bill" pales into insignificance at the side of the abuse of our care system.( Pop upto to your nearest hospital and see how many idiots accumulate at entrance smoking, many still attached to their introvenous system . Pop around to A&E on most late evenings. They estimate 70% of A&E budget goes to treating drunks directly or injuries sustained whilst drunk.
A few weeks ago I witnessed an incident I never thought possible. An out of control Bonfire was attended to by 2 fire appliances. Fire crews were bombarded with stones, fire engines were damaged. How do we provide a caring government for this type of society. How does NHS treat people who wont stop smoking ? How do we make our city centres pleasant places when they are full of drunks most nights ? All the funding in world cant cure some ills. Infact, I suspect a labour government under JC will just release more cash to spend on alcohol, cigarettes,ganja and big macs.

 

[SHAN]

Today, the financial situation for young people isn't much different,

"Yesterday" there wasn't the tantalising amount of toys on offer, credit wasn't as easy to obtain, and to a certain degree was frowned on. Move yourself on, if you were 18 today, would you be any different to today's 18 year olds ? When every new generation comes along there is always an "old git" mentality from the previous one, I often have to remind myself I was once a stupid teenager/adolescent. A close friend of mine was involved in a project regarding inner city problems similar to those you mention. One of the issues that became noticed very early on in the study was that families such as you mention were fourth generation, and to them, there situation/mess is an acceptable way of life And the only one they know. A few years ago, I was involved in a project designed to rehabilitate offenders. Part of this was training adults on there personal hygiene, soap is cheap. There is quite a dark world out there and its nothing new. Not so much TB and Rickets now though.

 

[tillson]

"Yesterday" there wasn't the tantalising amount of toys on offer, credit wasn't as easy to obtain, and to a certain degree was frowned on. Move yourself on, if you were 18 today, would you be any different to today's 18 year olds ? When every new generation comes along there is always an "old git" mentality from the previous one, I often have to remind myself I was once a stupid teenager/adolescent. A close friend of mine was involved in a project regarding inner city problems similar to those you mention. One of the issues that became very early on in the study was that families such as you mention were fourth generation, and to them, there situation/mess is an acceptable way of life Anthe only one they know. A few years ago, I was involved in a project designed to rehabilitate offenders. Part of this was training adults on there personal hygiene, soap is cheap. There is quite a dark world out there and its nothing new. Not so much TB and Rickets now though.

I'm painfully aware of the "old git" mentality and admit I'm guilty. To a degree, our / my generation are guilty of breeding today's must have it all now culture. Parents showing their children with excessive gifts and endless amounts of money has taught them nothing about value and the pleasure of earning a treat.

Reckoning day is just around the corner.

 

[SHAN]

Reckoning day is just around the corner.

A friend of mine gave his granddaughter a "labradoodle" for her Christmas, and paid a ridiculous amount for what 20 years ago would have been called a mongrel, and you'd have got it for free. Sometimes people need protected/educated, from their own stupidity.

 

[oldgroaner]

And your solution to motivating these people is what exactly? these are after all the main supporters of Brexit,who feel the Government isn't doing enough for them because the EU prevents them doing so.

And now have high hopes of better times.

Tell me how will they react when they are greeted with a "Tough love policy?"
It's all very well taking a moral stance, but it is quite likely as I and others have predicted all along Simplistic answers such as putting them under pressure will simply result in Social Chaos.

Someone with more than half a brain needs to come up with an answer that will not only make "Brexit" work, but not prove to be a lit fuse that blows the top off social peace.

Pointing out their shortcomings will get the same reaction that pointing out the drawbacks of Brexit does.

They will feel their intelligence, indeed their very self esteem is under attack.
Brexit will offer nothing but "Blood sweat,toil and Tears" as Churchill once said

What do you disagree with here Zlatan?

 

[oldgroaner]

Reckoning day is just around the corner.

So you have finally realised have you?
Good grief it took long enough,and you still draw the wrong conclusion.
Do you imagine kicking what is a nest of Soldier ants with your bare feet will go well for you?
The whole fabric of our society is at risk.

 

[oldgroaner]

A friend of mine gave his granddaughter a "labradoodle" for her Christmas, and paid a ridiculous amount for what 20 years ago would have been called a mongrel, and you'd have got it for free. Sometimes people need protected/educated, from their own stupidity.

But not by plunging them into servitude or poverty.

 

[oldgroaner]

Same house is now worth circa £165k. Interestingly that house is now occupied by a family of 5. Nobody works yet they afford foreign holidays and have rent paid by government. (I still own house but now rent it out) This family appear lots better off than my family did when we lived there , even tho we had 2 wage earners .

Interesting Morality at work here don't you think? this family bleed the state only to end up giving money to you?

That is Hilarious.
By your own admission you are taking Taxpayers money just as they are!

"Big fleas have little fleas upon their backs to bite them,
And little fleas have smaller fleas,
And so ad infinitum.

Your Morality preaching smacks of
"Do as I say
Not as I do."

Great post, a lesson for us all.

 

[SHAN]

But not by plunging them into servitude or poverty.

Of course not.

 

[tillson]

So you have finally realised have you?
Good grief it took long enough,and you still draw the wrong conclusion.
Do you imagine kicking what is a nest of Soldier ants with your bare feet will go well for you?
The whole fabric of our society is at risk.

I won’t be kicking any form of nest, ant or hornet.

 

[oldgroaner]

I won’t be kicking any form of nest, ant or hornet.

You already have, Brexit is indeed a mighty kick, and the Tory party mean to take every advantage to separate the lower orders from welfare, Heath and Safety, food, holidays and decent working conditions.
The process is already well advanced and sooner or later there can be only one possible outcome.
The Public were upset enough to vote for Brexit thinking membership of the EU caused their problems, and or it gave the Government a kick up the backside.
And they were made lavish promises too.
When things get worse even the dimmest will come to realise that voting was not sufficient to get the changes they wanted.
To imagine that they will tolerate being made poorer and exploited, even more that they are now, will be accepted, is to underestimate the way they will react and very dangerous.

 

[Zlatan]

OG
I disagree with this load of bo110x.

"these are after all the main supporters of Brexit,who feel the Government isn't doing enough for them because the EU prevents them doing so."

And your generalisation that every landlord is living off others is sheer BS. Actually I could have sold house easily and invested it elsewhere to make more.( sponging off rich is loads easier than anyone else) I kept the house so family could stay in it on minimum rent paid by government.
(House rental is at best 5%, nearer 3 taking everything into account)I,m getting around 12 on my business interests, and could use that £165k to do same)
You really are bigotted OG.
You know about as much about house rental as you do most other things. Feck all.

At moment renting out houses is about keeping capital together, keeping a family housed and paying upkeep and taxes. Its definitely not about profiteering or even making money. Do the maths OG. House worth £165k. Rental £500 a month. Taxes,wear,repairs,agent fees..I,d get more on stock market with lots less hassle.
You really need a reality check,never mind my needing a morality one. Profiteering according to you is 3.6% gross profit.? Agent charges 15% , taxed on gross at 20%. No wonder you support Labour,Corbyn has similar ideas about economics. You and your kind would bankrupt country in a week.
And BTW out of my £350 monthly profiteering I have to pay annual gas check and all major repairs. Last year we just broke even.( house needed new boiler ,roof and gutter repairs)
But ofcourse you are allowed to call my morals into question because you support labour, well claim to now . And last time we had a Tennant change I had to break into my own house because locks had been super glued,)

When current tennants leave, house will be sold. You can buy it OG and start profiteering, but be warned if you take a mortgage out its likely ( infact guaranteed) you will lose money. Fact. Profiteering, what a p1lock.
Quick quid or whatever its called charge over 1000% on loans. Landlords like myself
are getting under 5% ( well under) and without them.property values would collapse, number of homeless would explode yet idiots like yourself in sheer ignorance are allowed to generalise as lefties are so.prone to and see my activities as immoral and profiteering. I won't expect your apologies only your justifications.

 

[SHAN]

To imagine that they will tolerate being made poorer

Problem is "we" are a credit society. You would have thought that after the 2008 crash, which was credit driven, we would have learned, but the money lenders have just figured more ingenious methods to lure the unsuspecting into more debt. The heads of these credit companies don't worry, they already have more cash stashed offshore, than they will ever need, and as Green and Goodwin have proved, you get off Scott free. Off course the old British attitude "mustn't grumble" will always prevail. Boris would just love to be "Churchillian" and send in the troops to quell unrest. (See red clydeside and its causes)

 

[anotherkiwi]

The seeds of the fruit we are now harvesting were sown by Reagan and Thatcher. When capitalism remained capitalism before it became unbridled capitalism you bought your houses at decent prices despite high interest rates. Now there are no interest rates and speculation primes over investment.

brexit may be a good idea to get you out of unbridled capitalism and then again it may not be a good idea, only the near future may tell.

 

[SHAN]

The seeds of the fruit we are now harvesting were sown by Reagan and Thatcher.

The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

And all they could dig up was she didn't want to fly with a panda.

 

[oldgroaner]

The seeds of the fruit we are now harvesting were sown by Reagan and Thatcher. When capitalism remained capitalism before it became unbridled capitalism you bought your houses at decent prices despite high interest rates. Now there are no interest rates and speculation primes over investment.

brexit may be a good idea to get you out of unbridled capitalism and then again it may not be a good idea, only the near future may tell.

Sorry but brexit will expose us to unbridled capitalism, that is the reason behind it

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