Brexit, for once some facts.

[Kudoscycles]

I find Theresa May going on a tour of the smaller EU countries very embarrassing.
I still think we should not have embarked on this Brexit experiment but if we are leaving the EU we should retain our pride and self respect.
There must be many EU countries that are frightened of losing the UK trade business....tomatoes from Spain,wines from France,pork from Denmark,cars from Germany etc etc.....whilst I think us achieving new export markets for UK goods,aside from Europe,will be difficult....I do think that replacing sources of wine,food,cars elsewhere from Europe will be very easy.
May is not playing to our strengths,actually Davis lay back style and lack of urgency is probably working well,Tusk gave us 2 weeks to come up with some more money,we should ignore that. There will come a moment when the EU realise that they still want our business.
The Irish border problem is really Ireland's problem,which makes it the EU's problem,let them control trade across the border,not us.
A crash out may be the best for everyone,it will stimulate a mutual deal and some transition whilst we sort out a trade deal. In the UK the poor will suffer badly but Brexiters realised this and are willing to experience short term pain (5 years minimum) to achieve their dream of sovereignty,after all that's what they voted for.
Still a remainer but if we are leaving let's make it a clean break.
KudosDave

 

[Zlatan]

This typical tory clown tried very hard to make his ill-researched point on QT but like many smart-arsed tory voters, he was wrong in what he was trying to prove.

View attachment 22161

My opinion of him? Well, I don't think very highly of him and I couldn't possibly express my true opinion in a public forum so I have jumbled up the letters to create a tricky anagram which I suppose might be beyond the deductive powers of some readers of these pages.

ressotetelpmoc

Tom

That's brilliant Tom, he,s either a stereoscope or a composer...must be the latter...
That's least insulting post you have ever done...

Better than pulling OG's string...errr...thanks but no thanks...

 

[flecc]

Nowadays, London is at the centre of everything: the country’s financial hub, media capital and centre of political power. So some bold decentralisation is needed: allow local governments to raise and keep more of their own money; ensure that a new national investment bank is based not in Canary Wharf, but on the banks of the Mersey or the Humber; and move parliament, as the MP Frank Field suggests, to Leeds or Manchester.

Peter, I agree with almost all, but not the quoted decentralisation, for the simple reason it's been going on for many decades and has never worked. We had all our manufacturing transferred elsewhere, many of our large companies, large numbers of major government departments, our tax offices, the National Exhibition Centre, some of our museums and much much more. Not to mention the £50 billion plus that is taken from London for the regions each year.

All to often we see it brings no change to the regions and often the busineses transferred out then later fail.

The North and other failing regions need to create their own original successes and not try to make do with the South's second hand ones. They can do it if given a chance with the right help and opportunities, Nissan Sunderland for example. The North's universities are already in place, but they need to produce more ideas for their future,

Blaming the South won't bring success and continuing to take from the South indefinitely will only ensure we all fail.
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

It certainly is. To a degree this is the thrust that the so-called 'Northern Powerhouse' is set to deliver of which I am a total convert, and have said so numerous times on here. Just to complete the illusion it is a Conservative led initiative championed by the previous Chancellor the aim of which is to create a Northern Powerhouse of course. The current Government are totally in support and once Brexit is out of the way will be able to devote the time it deserves.

And where is the money going to come from to create the northern powerhouse? I thought it was a political dream of Osborne's to achieve votes rather than reality?
Read about Rees Mogg's idea of converting us to a Singapore economy.....no NHS,no state funding,no pensions,no tax credits,no benefits....how is that going to help northern investment?......low income tax,low corporation tax,no capital gains tax,no inheritance tax...the city of London and big business will love that.
KudosDave

 

[PeterL]

Peter, I agree with almost all, but not the quoted decentralisation, for the simple reason it's been going on for many decades and has never worked. We had all our manufacturing transferred elsewhere, many of our large companies, large numbers of major government departments, our tax offices, the National Exhibition Centre, some of our museums and much much more. Not to mention the £50 billion plus that is taken from London for the regions each year.

All to often we see it brings no change to the regions and often the busineses transferred out then later fail.

The North and other failing regions need to create their own original successes and not try to make do with the South's second hand ones. They can do it if given a chance with the right help and opportunities, Nissan Sunderland for example. The North's universities are already in place, but they need to produce more ideas for their future,

Blaming the South won't bring success and continuing to take from the South indefinitely will only ensure we all fail.
.

That'll do by me. It is rarely the case that all of an idea is correct but there's more than enough meat in that and the Northern Powerhouse for me. I think the constant references to London and SE are simply there to make a point. We can't, indeed mustn't just relay on them to create all the wealth we need, there's far more to life than handouts. Perhaps Tom / OG would agree?

 

[oldtom]

I wonder if we could agree on this? I associate myself with it

There might be a point that I'm missing but regardless of any kind of 'Brexit', I fail to see how the tory party will change things that they have chosen to neglect for decades.

Put another way, given that the divisions within UK society have all been created because of tory policies, why should anyone indulge in the fantasy that as a consequence of 'Brexit', everything will change for the better?

I can understand that desperation born out of fear of the unknown could induce the hope that all the failings of the tory government through most of the 20th century might be reversed free of the EU but of course, there has never been and still isn't any agenda to improve the condition of or emancipate any group of people, northerners or otherwise. Divide and conquer has always loomed large in the strategy of the establishment and their political wing.

As a result of 'Brexit', the UK will soon become a backwater that no other country needs in any particular way and the US of E will become stronger without us.

Tom

 

[Kudoscycles]

Most are saying that a crash out Brexit will hurt the UK more than the EU....but is that true....the Irish sell a lot of agriculture products to the north,there is a heavy tariff on food ,milk products which means the north will need to grow more,buy more elsewhere in the world or just accept that prices will rise....it seems to me that will hurt the south more than the north.
KudosDave

 

[tommie]

The Irish border problem is really Ireland's problem,which makes it the EU's problem,let them control trade across the border,not us.

Correct,

The ROI want the border as is, N.I. want the border as is, as do the rest of the U.K.
so it`s the EU`s problem, nobody elses,

deal with it Brussels

 

[Danidl]

I find Theresa May going on a tour of the smaller EU countries very embarrassing.
I still think we should not have embarked on this Brexit experiment but if we are leaving the EU we should retain our pride and self respect.
There must be many EU countries that are frightened of losing the UK trade business....tomatoes from Spain,wines from France,pork from Denmark,cars from Germany etc etc.....whilst I think us achieving new export markets for UK goods,aside from Europe,will be difficult....I do think that replacing sources of wine,food,cars elsewhere from Europe will be very easy.
May is not playing to our strengths,actually Davis lay back style and lack of urgency is probably working well,Tusk gave us 2 weeks to come up with some more money,we should ignore that. There will come a moment when the EU realise that they still want our business.
The Irish border problem is really Ireland's problem,which makes it the EU's problem,let them control trade across the border,not us.
A crash out may be the best for everyone,it will stimulate a mutual deal and some transition whilst we sort out a trade deal. In the UK the poor will suffer badly but Brexiters realised this and are willing to experience short term pain (5 years minimum) to achieve their dream of sovereignty,after all that's what they voted for.
Still a remainer but if we are leaving let's make it a clean break.
KudosDave

The Irish border problem is a British problem at least as much as it is an Irish problem. Are you forgetting that there are 1.5 million British subjects sitting there? All of the west coast of Scotland is open to smugglers, the outer isles ,are only a few hours by small boat. If Ireland were to remain unguarded, then there could be millions of migrants taking cheap Ryanair flights from Athens landing at Dublin and walking accross. Drugs, gems, guns people smuggling , disease control.. you do need to protect your borders Now we may , with EU support , stop cheap British goods, made in China, going the other way...
. Ditto on the east coast of the UK with Sweden and Denmark..
It is cavalier in the extreme to say the border is someone else's problem..

Look at the balances of trades. England is a desirable market for a number of countries and EU likes to sell into the UK. But except for Ireland, it is not important. This might be hard to grasp, but if you go , as I have into French supermarket's and look at standard products.. the labeling is in French Spanish and Dutch , rarely ever is English listed.

Ireland is the exception, our retail sector has traditionally been linked with the UK, so we have tkmax, Tesco and a few Mark and Spenser but more European brands are becoming established both as product ranges and retailers..

 

[Woosh]

Tusk gave us 2 weeks to come up with some more money,we should ignore that. There will come a moment when the EU realise that they still want our business.

I think we should workout fast what we want post brexit.
The way DD and TM are negotiating at the moment is so wishy washy that nobody can understand where we are heading.
If we want to stay close to the EU, we have to join their customs union. It's spelled out B/W, why anyone could possibly think they are going to change that because we are a big customer is beyond me.
If, and this scenario is likely if the current negotiating team remains the same, we'll end up with a CETA style deal, all the integrated manufacturing destined for EU exports (Nissan, Toyota, Airbus, RR, big pharma etc) will move out of the UK to the EU27, our balance of payment will be so much in the red that calling in the IMF will be a real possibility. It'll be all because we thought they need us more than we need them.

 

[oldgroaner]

Above all, be bold. It normally takes exceptional times – witness 1945

Promises, promises! We need not just these things, but to do them while members of the EU, or they simply will remain
Wishing for the Moon

 

[oldgroaner]

It certainly is. To a degree this is the thrust that the so-called 'Northern Powerhouse' is set to deliver of which I am a total convert, and have said so numerous times on here. Just to complete the illusion it is a Conservative led initiative championed by the previous Chancellor the aim of which is to create a Northern Powerhouse of course. The current Government are totally in support and once Brexit is out of the way will be able to devote the time it deserves.

Yes it certainly is a "Conservative led illusion" by the very man you all threw out over his "project Fear" failure to win the referendum, remember?
The idea that the Present Governent has either the intent, means or ability to carry it out is pure fantasy.
They will sooner find a way to sell it to their friends to our disadvantage, as they have everything else
Dream on

 

[oldgroaner]

In the Express
"
It is time to get annoyed with David Davis. What has he accomplished?"
David Davis.

Depends which half of the Tory Party you ask I suppose.

And from the Express
Mr Singapore has this to say
"
James Dyson declares Brexit will be a disaster for EUROPE as he predicts UK will WALK AWAY
SIR JAMES Dyson believes Britain will leave the European Union without a deal in what will be a “disaster for Europe”.

But there's good news too
"
Davis Davis COULD QUIT as Brexit Secretary after ‘being frozen out of negotiations’
ALLIES of David Davis have suggested he could quit as Brexit Secretary over frustration at being frozen out of key strategic talks on the UK's divorce from the European Union, it has been reported.

By Sam Sholli

When the going gets tough
Davis throws his rattle out of the pram and runs home

 

[oldtom]

The ROI want the border as is, N.I. want the border as is, as do the rest of the U.K.
so it`s the EU`s problem, nobody elses,

The situation you have described is incompatible with the ideals and aims of a borderless EU. There is a variety of ways in which resolution might be achieved but some of those would not be to everyone's liking on the island of Ireland.

To simply say that it's the EU's problem is to pass the buck. If Eire wishes to remain part of the EU, I believe it is incumbent upon their government to strengthen border controls and both isolate and insulate themselves from the UK-voting part of Ireland.

This difficulty was created by the UK's decision to leave the EU against the wishes of the people of NI and now there is some serious thinking needs to be done by all Irish men and women. Personally, I would dearly love to see a united Ireland, an Ireland in the EU with no dependency on the UK. It is long past time for total unity of north and south - Germany managed possibly an even greater logistical challenge post-1989 so nothing is insurmountable.

Tom

 

[Crockers]

Have a friend who is a German policeman. He would like hard borders back in Germany as there is too much smuggling of guns etc especially from the Czech Republic.

 

[oldtom]

Maybe I missed it but I can't recall seeing this in mainstream media headlines. 'Vox Political', however, draws attention to this extraordinary example of political shenanigans by our corrupt government:

uk-is-defying-international-sanctions-to-pay-iran-more-than-400m-nothing-to-do-with-saving-boris-johnsons-career

Tom

 

[Zlatan]

: http://bit.ly/29RRE9C

This link gives a brief explanation as to why the author feels trade deals must be linked to free movement of people.
Most EU academics have bought into this idea and as such has become a prime directive within EU and a stumbling block for our trade deal.
Unfortunately this idea is actually an EU idealistic construct and a massive experiment on EU's part. Its justification is not proven, the links are theories.
Does it follow that if UK did negotiate a trade deal with China supporters of this " experiment" would insist on free movement between China and UK. On a world stage our EU experiment is flawed, and puts countries insisting on enforcing it at a distinct disadvantage to those that do not.

 

[oldgroaner]

: http://bit.ly/29RRE9C

This link gives a brief explanation as to why the author feels trade deals must be linked to free movement of people.
Most EU academics have bought into this idea and as such has become a prime directive within EU and a stumbling block for our trade deal.
Unfortunately this idea is actually an EU idealistic construct and a massive experiment on EU's part. Its justification is not proven, the links are theories.
Does it follow that if UK did negotiate a trade deal with China supporters of this " experiment" would insist on free movement between China and UK. On a world stage our EU experiment is flawed, and puts countries insisting on enforcing it at a distinct disadvantage to those that do not.

Your poor memory is showing again, didn't India just insist on Free movement of peoples as part of any trade deal?
And lets face it since the EU wants to improve the flow of trade and a levelling of the affairs and finances of countries inside the bloc, there has simply got to be free movement of people.
You don't like that, yet want free movement for yourself to exploit Europe don't you, without seeing any irony there.
The Justification is that the EU economy booms and ours falls way behind.

From the Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jun/08/uk-economy-falls-to-bottom-of-eu-growth-league
UK economy falls to bottom of EU growth league
First quarter figures of 0.2% GDP growth beaten by every other nation in 28-country bloc as weaker pound after the Brexit vote fuels price inflation

Do you really enjoy being consistently Wrong?
You want a trade deal?
Why accept second best?
Cancel Brexit and enjoy the best Trade Deal in the World
(Then get rid of the Worst Government that is ballsing things up for us!)

 

[anotherkiwi]

An interesting experiment would be all EU nationals living and working in the UK going on strike for 24 hours. Total strike i.e. not only stopping working but not buying anything either. I bet the result would open a few shuttered eyes.

 

[oldtom]

Here is one of the leading lights of the 'Leave' group:



And for a bit of black humour:



Tom