Brexit, for once some facts.

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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OG, back on 28th May 2016 you posted this as a possible Brexit consequence:

Our best plan then would be to grovel to the Americans, or alternatively teach Mandarin as a main language and go cap in hand to Beijing, wouldn't it?

Now 15 months later both are happening, TM buttering up Trump and hoping trade with China will help us post Brexit.

Good predicting!
.
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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OG, back on 28th May 20176 you posted this as a possible Brecxit consequence:

Our best plan then would be to grovel to the Americans, or alternatively teach Mandarin as a main language and go cap in hand to Beijing, wouldn't it?

Now 15 months later that is what is happening, TM buttering up Trump and hoping trade with China will help us post Brexit.

Good predicting!
.
Did you have to remind me?
Shades of Hagrids " I shouldn't have said that! "

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk
 
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Woosh

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How do you calculate £35 billion,other than it sits midway between £65billion and £5 billion?
Nick Watts gave the figure of between £34b-£36b on Newsnight about a week ago, citing sources close to the negotiation. I made it to £35b, to be the middlepoint between 34 and 36.
 
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oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
Here is the view of a publication that has been around for over a century and does not form part of the Murdoch empire:


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New Statesman



“The British establishment do not have a great track record when it comes to the great questions of their era … Time after time the elite have got it wrong”.

When David Davis said this during the referendum campaign he had the luxury of being a political outsider, on the backbenches. It was a trick deployed by all the prominent Brexiteers: discredit the case for staying in the EU by manipulating the public’s distrust of politicians, and undermine the credibility of experts by branding anyone pro-European as “elitist”.

Now that Davis sits in the cabinet as the Brexit secretary – and, as surely even he would now have to agree, a member of the elite – it is only right that we consider how right or wrong he has been in his predictions about how the negotiations would unfold. Fortunately, the speech he gave during the referendum campaign, and his interviews and articles immediately afterwards, offered a series of predictions and promises against which his own progress can be judged.

First up, Davis said the Government should “take a little time before triggering Article 50” because “the negotiating strategy has to be properly designed, and there is some serious consultation to be done first.”

Quite right too. But it simply did not happen. Article 50 was triggered on the basis of an unachievable wish list. There was no negotiating strategy, and there still isn’t. As Davis conceded in March, the “no deal is better than a bad deal” mantra is not underpinned by an economic impact assessment – in fact he told the Brexit select committee that there won’t be one until next year. And consultations have only recently been launched (and will not conclude for many months) on fundamental issues including the impact of immigration on the UK economy and how a new customs regime might work.

Nonetheless, Davis had a plan for getting a quick win on the board. “The first calling point of the UK’s negotiator”, he argued in May 2016, “will not be Brussels, it will be Berlin, to strike the deal: absolute access for German cars and industrial goods, in exchange for a sensible deal on everything else.”

Needless to say, this hasn’t happened either, for several reasons. Firstly, because as was clear would be the case during the referendum, Angela Merkel is fully focused on the German election. Second, because Davis and Theresa May have singularly failed to build alliances, to the extent that the Prime Minister is said to have a “basically non-existent”relationship with Merkel.

But third, and most crucially, because individual member states can’t negotiate bilateral trade deals. Seemingly unaware of this fact, Davis went on to confidently predict that: “Similar deals would be reached with other key EU nations,” citing France, Italy and Poland as apparently easy wins.

The delusory predictions kept on coming. Along with the other Brexiteers, Davis consistently argued that the negotiations on both the terms of Britain’s exit from the EU and a new free trade agreement would be concluded within the Article 50 timeframe. “At the end of two years, we will have our deals,” As recently as 14 May he said he would have “the row of the summer” with Michel Barnier to ensure Britain could negotiate both deals alongside one another. Just weeks later he caved in, and today it looks as though talks on a future trade agreement (which will in reality take at least five years to negotiate) may now not begin until Christmas.

But we shouldn’t fear the impact of leaving the Single Market and the Customs Union, Davis told us last summer, because by autumn 2018 we will have negotiated a free trade area “ten times the size” of the EU. We were told that on 9 September 2016 the Government would launch “a large round of global trade deals” and that “the negotiation phase of most of them [would] be concluded within between 12 and 24 months.”

Disregarding the fact that Britain is prohibited from negotiating free trade agreements whilst it is a member of the Customs Union, he went on: “So within two years, before the negotiation with the EU is likely to be complete, and therefore before anything material has changed, we can negotiate a free trade area massively larger than the EU."

This was either staggeringly deceitful or alarmingly stupid. The reality of course, is that, as Davis and Liam Fox approach 9 September, the halfway point for this absurd commitment to be met, trade negotiations have begun with a grand total of zero countries. This will remain the case until we leave the Customs Union, meaning damage will be done to the economy long-before any new deals materialise.

And it is in fact worse than that. The 53 preferential trade deals we enjoy with the EU – which Davis confidently assured us last year “would stay in place until either side wanted to renegotiate” – do in fact require negotiation, and this has barely begun. The Department for International Trade is deeply unprepared and ill-equipped for the task ahead.

To this long list of deceptions by the Brexit secretary we can also now add a raft of broken promises made by the leave campaign, of which Davis was a part. The end of budget payments to the EU. An end to red tape for businesses. Immigration down to the tens of thousands. £350m a week extra for the NHS. An end to any influence of the European Court of Justice in the UK.

As one by one these totemic promises continue to collapse, along with the confident predictions of the Brexiteers, Davis seems to be doing a good job of proving his own point: that “the elite” really can get things spectacularly wrong.

Tom
 

Woosh

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Those responsible were, to a man and to a woman, of the millionaire class and some, indeed, of the billionaire class.
you are clutching at straws, oldtom.
This argument you put forward is your own assertion, not supported by any concrete proof whatsoever.
If you were correct in your assertions all those voted for brexit are all idiots or zombies manipulated by billionaires and they don't know their own mind.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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I note the thread count has been forced to reduce the font to fit in the over thousand number.
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Danidl

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How do you calculate £35 billion,other than it sits midway between £65billion and £5 billion? I just don't see anyway that more than £10billion is going to be approved by our parliament and/or the electorate...
In this Leavers and Remainers are in agreement but for different reasons...
Leavers voted for Brexit to get £11billion per year not to give the EU money,Redwood,Rees-Mug etc have said we don't owe them a penny.
Remainers don't want to be part of Brexit so don't want to pay a penny towards what they see as a stupid idea,certainly not one that should cost them any money.
This is an impasse with no solution,other than the time will run out and we will crash out or stay in.
KudosDave
.. congratulations on post 20000
. But if time runs out the UK crashes out .. there is no legal alternative. The EU negotiators cannot unilaterally hold the UK in, the UK would need to request it and I am inclined think in terms of the hell and snow in that regard. The EU parliment would need to unanamously agree,.... No qualified majority voting and then the fate of Gibraltar, and maybe the channel islands might come into play .
 

Danidl

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When you have finished calling each other names...

The UK has decided to leave the EU. The world is watching. My question if I was Japanese or Chinese would be "is the UK a trustworthy trading partner?"... My personal vote would be "no" going by how you are carrying on at the moment. No trust, no trade. You are acting like you did in the 19th century. FYI the world has moved on since then...
.. I think that's a good question. If the UK crashes out without acknowledging debts that it legally agreed to , and engages in the types of current tantrum, then there will be great concern. I don't know which are actually the legal agreements, but failure of a country to honour them has major implications for any future relationships.
Trust is an extremely important commodity in any dealing .
 

oldgroaner

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If you were correct in your assertions all those voted for brexit are all idiots or zombies manipulated by billionaires and they don't know their own mind.
Or have been misled for many years and are unaware of the truth through no fault of their own.
Have you thought of that? it is by far more likely than that they misunderstood what they were voting for, for how could they really know what would be the result, when the Government, even at this late stage is only now doing research into the consequences of Brexit?

You don't have to be stupid to Vote for something people you trust mislead you and lie about.
You just have to have other things occupying your attention , especially when the campaign is filled with such vaulting hopes and promises after Brexit.
And most significantly the Government that many detest is for remain, and it too exaggerates the down side, while unable to prove it's case through incompetence.

Brexit was a triumph for Vain Hopes over certain despair by the disenfrachised, who longed for release from their plight.They imagined it would chasten the Government and make it's policies more benign, as it would remove Foreigners from competing with the locals, meaning there would be more jobs, and those jobs would be better paid, and with better terms and conditions attached.

Woe and Thrice Woe! no one now can possibly believe that will happen, if they give it even a modicum of thought.
So now the "Patriotic" "Sovereignty" "taking back control" nonsense is employed to keep this shambles going

What will eventually kill Brexit is that it cannot do any of those things, and worse the powers that be want to use it as a weapon of Control.
There can be only one long term result
TROUBLE.
 
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oldgroaner

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I note the thread count has been forced to reduce the font to fit in the over thousand number.
.
We have obviously encountered a fundamental Mathematical constant first experienced by the Japanese

Due to Massively Expanding it's product range and sales, the Nippon Kakasaki Electronics Company has moved into smaller premises.
Style of thing
This actually relates well to Brexit, as the more you hear, read, discuss or think about Brexit.
The smaller it gets, it's actually shrinking as we watch!
Would Viagra restore a "Stiff upper lip" so to speak to the campaign?

I could write an equation for that, get one of them there "Nobbly" prizes?
 
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Danidl

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In those days, late 70's we were working on mobile phones. Big ones, Needed a rucksack to carry the thing and the claim was that for the first time it would mean that the General would be able to speak directly with a tank commander on the battlefield, Sort of came to pass but it was certainly the framework for the mobile phone of today. Where would we be but for the Cold War?
I think it was more the space program rather than the cold war. ... . The reason why those early rts were as large as they were due to low energy storage in lead acid battery and nicds, the larger energy consumption of tubes valves, and the larger range required. Of course the valves were needed in fear of emp which would blow transistors apart.
 
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oldgroaner

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I think it was more the space program rather than the cold war. ... . The reason why those early rts were as large as they were due to low energy storage in lead acid battery and nicds, the larger energy consumption of tubes valves, and the larger range required. Of course the valves were needed in fear of emp which would blow transistors apart.
My old Oppo worked in RDF (yes he was much more ancient that even I am)
And he didn't care for Transistors
His name for them?
"Three legged Fuses" and the OC70 range were barely even that!
 
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oldgroaner

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.. I think that's a good question. If the UK crashes out without acknowledging debts that it legally agreed to , and engages in the types of current tantrum, then there will be great concern. I don't know which are actually the legal agreements, but failure of a country to honour them has major implications for any future relationships.
Trust is an extremely important commodity in any dealing .
I think you are being negative, there is one country that would welcome a trade deal, and be able to smile at the Law changes the Tory party are lining up.
It's Called "North something or other" near Japan I think.
And if we Chum up to them, we can Give Trident back to it's owners and say "thank's for the loan, we don't need it now, you can frighten someone else with it."
 

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
If you were correct in your assertions all those voted for brexit are all idiots or zombies manipulated by billionaires and they don't know their own mind.
As has been recorded on many previous occasions over the last 1,000 pages, the general public was lied to. If you wish to quote me, please provide the context in which I made a comment. The full paragraph from which you selectively quote was this:

All I will say to you is that it wasn't anyone from the disadvantaged sector of the population who provided the means and opportunity by which a 'bogeyman' would be created and held responsible for all the UK's ills. Neither was it anyone from that disenfranchised group who led the massive propaganda campaign to ensure the unsophisticated, ordinary folks would support the removal of the UK from the clutches of that mythical 'bogeyman'. Those responsible were, to a man and to a woman, of the millionaire class and some, indeed, of the billionaire class.
It is entirely your choice to denigrate those ordinary members of the public who were repeatedly lied to by silver-tongued, snake-oil salesmen as being 'idiots or zombies'.

I see it differently. Given the lies they were subjected to after the EU became the 'bogeyman' through the nationwide media onslaught by the propaganda wing of the tory government that saturated all political news in every media form and continues till this day, it is not unreasonable to imagine that those decent, salt-of-the-earth citizens were entirely brainwashed.

One infamous fascist, Hermann Göring, declared:

Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.

That principle can be applied to 'Brexit'.

The real expert from the Nazi era of the 1930s was not Göring but Joseph Goebbels who said this:


th.jpeg

Goebbels is also on record as stating:

'Think of the press as a great keyboard on which the government can play.'

And he justified that by saying this:

'It is the absolute right of the State to supervise the formation of public opinion.'

Unfortunately, it seems that you cannot bring yourself to recognise that 21st century political figures might behave in such a way. Therefore, you blame the poor for sharing your naivety about the motivation of certain evil-minded politicians. Try to remember that the poor had never heard the expression, 'Brexit' before Farage and Co. began their campaign.

Tom
 

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oldgroaner

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No. I don't see the point.
What anyone sees depends on their point of view. Your truths about brexit probably won't apply to those who voted out.
Nobody is obliged to buy the Sun or the Express. I may have picked up a copy now and then left in the trains but never bought either in my entire life.
Come on, you can do better than that, the whole thrust of the news including the TV channels and Radio for 40 years has been devoted to placing the blame for all perceived ills at the door of the EU and away from where it really lies, the Westminster Flying Circus, and that has been the case when either party was in power.

And you are saying you didn't notice?
That actually proves my assertion perfectly. the continuous anti EU propaganda has become in many people's minds eye the perceived truth, so they didn't question it's veracity.

Thus the ground was well prepared when Boris, Gove and Lord Nigel spouted their lies, and almost but not quite promises using the Pirate's Code:
"They're not really Promises but possibilities really, and anyway I only stood in Front of the Bus, I didn't actually believe the message."
plus all the other imps, pimps and Banjo Players with supporting roles in the Brexit touring Circus.
 

Woosh

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OG, if you work with as many poor people as I have, you'd see their p.o.v. a lot more sympathetically and may even accept their reasons to vote for brexit.
Most of my customers can't afford a German bikes.
 

anotherkiwi

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OG, if you work with as many poor people as I have, you'd see their p.o.v. a lot more sympathetically and may even accept their reasons to vote for brexit.
Most of my customers can't afford a German bikes.
... So they buy a Czech one :rolleyes:
 

oldgroaner

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Nov 15, 2015
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OG, if you work with as many poor people as I have, you'd see their p.o.v. a lot more sympathetically and may even accept their reasons to vote for brexit.
Note that I use the present tense.
Hells teeth ! You are the one that is unsympathetic to the Poor, what on earth are you objecting to about my analysis of their state of mind?
It was clear enough that Brexit was a protest against their treatment that had been subverted by unscrupulous politicians
Are you claiming it wasn't? that somehow they fully understood what Brexit would mean to their futures?
If that is your assertion then there are over 17 millions Geniuses disguised as poor people in this country of ours, but they are all Masochists!
None of them understood what was at stake, since no one anywhere knew that, they took a Gamble.
Spare me the sermon about poor people, come to Hull and you will see more than enough of them.
 

Woosh

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Are you claiming it wasn't? that somehow they fully understood what Brexit would mean to their futures?
I don't know if they fully understood what brexit means for their future, I don't quite see the ramifications myself, but at least I understand their reasons.
People don't need complex reasoning. Anyone can see that their tax money goes where they don't see any return.
 

Woosh

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... So they buy a Czech one :rolleyes:
I specialize in bikes costing under £1k, appropriately low enough for cycle to work schemes. At that price, I can only fit a sticker that is printed in the UK, the rest has to come from China.
 

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