Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

You seem to have some kind of infatuation regarding responding to my posts OG.
I was called a racist ( by KTM) , Tom calls everyone a racist, both these you seem quite happy with. My comment about not having a clue was a direct answer to the accusation of my being ignorant and or racist.
On both counts he is clueless, he has never met me,knows nothing about me.
Fact is Sarah Champion said it as it is, yes her choice of words was poor.
Asian/ Pakistani/ Muslim gangs are preying on white at risk underage females in many of our towns.
The police have known about it, child protection agencies knew about it. In many instances children were ignored. ( totally against child protection laws in force)
The main reason much was ignored was in intrrests of race relations. Are you defending that OG ?
Sarah Champion resigning will not stop any children being targeted,the work she was doing might have. What is our governments priority ( and JC's) Being PC or protecting the innocent.
Sarah Champion might have upset a few individuals, what she was trying to do might save a few lives. And to be fair the Asians/ Pakistanis / Muslims I know were in total agreement with her. As were the ( Asian) guests on radio this am.
Its middle class do gooders sat at their computers with nothing better to do who get all offended when folk say it as it is.
Pakistani gangs are targeting young females. UK does have a problem.Both facts.
Rochdale. Rotherham. Oxford. Newcastle. Where next ???
Don't think for a moment your town is not involved. Chances are it is.

Crimes should always be prosecuted regardless of who perpetrates them, but stereotyping like this statement

"In no way do I assume this behaviour normal for any culture,but the perversion of Muslim beliefs by the gangs ( with regard to females being owned and all non believers destined for oblivion) is part of a larger cultural problem.

The dodgy statement is this
is part of a larger cultural problem.

 

[Steb]

As I said in one previous post, the question asked of the voters was what they wish for, a choice out of two. Would you like not to pay in? Would you like to be free of the ECJ? There was no need to think further than that.
Brexit has to run its course because that was the rule of the game, and the majority would still like to see what will pan out from brexit. However, this time, everyone will take into account not only what they wish for but also any hidden cost to them personally that comes with real brexit.
I, for one, will accept soft brexit. A gradual change.

More broadly than about the ecj, why? Do you have any other reason than the ethnocentric stuff you mentioned about 'us' finding our identity etc? Integrating with EU economy gave us world renowned manufacturing like Nissan in Sunderland. This is people's lives, education, R&D, communities being put at risk. It's not affordable collateral damage, loss of EU membership isn't about the loss of cheap package holidays.

 

[oldgroaner]

Fake News strikes again from the Telegraph
"
Sarah Champion has been cowed by a mob that prioritises multiculturalism over our most vulnerable citizens"

Tell me know "mob"? which mob was this? point them out to us.

And this FAke news too
"
EU migrants barred from claiming benefits after Brexit as Theresa May revives David Cameron pledge
"
Someone should tell her that they already are under the 3 month rule, or better still, tell the Public.

 

[oldgroaner]

Also reported in the Telegraph would any politician really say that?

Trump responds to Barcelona attack by reviving myth of US general dipping bullets in pigs' blood to kill Muslims

“He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don't let that fool you. He really is an idiot.”

― Groucho Marx

 

[Woosh]

More broadly than about the ecj, why? Do you have any other reason than the ethnocentric stuff you mentioned about 'us' finding our identity etc? Integrating with EU economy gave us world renowned manufacturing like Nissan in Sunderland. This is people's lives, education, R&D, communities being put at risk. It's not affordable collateral damage, loss of EU membership isn't about the loss of cheap package holidays.

you get to keep almost all the current advantages as an EFTA member. You don't have the ECJ, the arbitration regime under EFTA Court covers only economic disputes. You can pick and choose to some extent EU laws.
A gradual brexit.
And let's spell it out, you don't need MEPs to represent us judging by their past performance.

 

[Kudoscycles]

There is a solution that cures all the negotiation problems of leaving the EU....this solution overcomes the Irish border problem,will instantly strengthen the £,overcomes the staffing problems of the NHS and social care,keeps all the valuable agencies in the UK,keeps the subsidies to farmers,medical research ,regional grants,avoids the divorce bill,keeps the security and rights of UK and EU expats,keeps 70 world trade deals including all the EU countries,gets government back to running the country,this is the obvious solution...........scrap Brexit and stay in the EU.
KudosDave

 

[Woosh]

your solution will upset all those who voted for brexit.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

KTM
You are doing exactly what helps create the problem. I am neither ignorant of what's going on or racist.
You need to do some research about the constitution of these gangs, their backgrounds and beliefs. Yes, accepted they do not represent the whole community but do hide behind bith our fear of racism and a perversion of Muslim faith. Speak to some Asians, Pakistanis. They are far more judgemental and will tell you exactly the explanation I offered.
Saying things as they are is not racist. The groups are " brown" Muslims of Asian,Pakistani and around 98% Muslim ( a few Seiks)
In no way do I assume this behaviour normal for any culture,but the perversion of Muslim beliefs by the gangs ( with regard to females being owned and all non believers destined for oblivion) is part of a larger cultural problem.
Sarah Champion was trying to open this very debate,stated the truth and gets sacked.???( ok, resigned, under advice)
They are evil nut jobs using a perversion of faith and hiding behind societies aversion to discussing racial issues.
Calling someone a racist is ignorant at best , especially so when you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

I've worked extensively with the Asian community in the north west, and as you've said yourself...
"The groups are " brown" Muslims of Asian,Pakistani and around 98% Muslim ( a few Seiks)
In no way do I assume this behaviour normal for any culture"
So you have to acknowledge, the problem is the gangs, not the culture or the religion as a whole. Its the culture of the gangs, NOT asia or islam.

I have 2 Sikh friends, and guess what. Despite what you might expect, they are both gay (they don't know each other) So 100% of my direct experience of Sikh's in the UK is that they are gay. This doesn't mean all Sikh men are gay, or all gay men are Sikh. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Just as the UK has had a problem with bankers, not white men... its a problem with pedophiles, not 70s DJ's.

What you keep saying, and you're digging yourself a hole is that the problem is asian men, or muslim men. Its not .... its men... the ones in these cases just happen to be muslim or asian. Their religion and race isn't the problem its their attitude. Their individual attitude.

If you know any Asian or Muslim men you'll know they don't believe raping, grooming etc etc to be accetable, so the problem is not their race or religion.

So I'm afraid what you've said is racist.

and just to quantify .... I'm not saying you are a racist. I'm saying what your saying here is racist.

 

[oldgroaner]

your solution will upset all those who voted for brexit.

That is of course an additional advantage, it might encourage them to think next time before they vote.

 

[oldgroaner]

That is of course an additional advantage, it might encourage them to think next time before they vote.

After due consideration I doubt that!

 

[Woosh]

when there are nearly as many voters on one side as on the other, any lasting solution must be a compromise, to minimize the number of losers.
If you look at the agreed policies, they comprise: visa free travel, continued arrangement for pensioners to retire to Southern Europe, maintaining European integrated manufacturing, the absence of physical border between NI and the ROI, some control on immigration and social benefits. These things are only possible after brexit if we remain very close to the EU.
The reason that I said cpmmon sense started to return is that we have achieved some sort of agreed policies.
That rules out hard brexit.

 

[flecc]

your solution will upset all those who voted for brexit.

Good, they deserve to suffer something for what they stupidly did.
.

 

[Danidl]

your solution will upset all those who voted for brexit.

.. and satisfy the almost equivalent number who were upset by what they saw as an irrational decision.

 

[Woosh]

.. and satisfy the almost equivalent number who were upset by what they saw as an irrational decision.

it's suicidal for both conservative and labour to upset those who voted for brexit, so there is no chance of reversal.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

the absence of physical border between NI and the ROI,

How.... can someone explain to me how this can happen???

Ireland is the EU, so in single market. Yes? So goods and people can flow into Ireland with no checks.

So with no border with NI, they can flow into the UK.

So how can we spend millions having a border at Dover to give the impression of a border when the back door isn't just wide open... its not even there!

The lack of logic with this plan is baffling.

 

[Danidl]

when there are nearly as many voters on one side as on the other, any lasting solution must be a compromise, to minimize the number of losers.
If you look at the agreed policies, they comprise: visa free travel, continued arrangement for pensioners to retire to Southern Europe, maintaining European integrated manufacturing, the absence of physical border between NI and the ROI, some control on immigration and social benefits. These things are only possible after brexit if we remain very close to the EU.
The reason that I said cpmmon sense started to return is that we have achieved some sort of agreed policies.
That rules out hard brexit.

I regret to suggest that it is a hard Brexit you are heading towards. There seems to be no suggestions on the table from the UK side which counter that.
The paper on the Irish border problem is only workable in one way... That Ireland votes to rejoin the UK. All other scenarios are unworkable, to greater or lesser degrees. It is noteworthy that the authors of that paper failed to read or understood the words of the Belfast .. good Friday agreement, when they provided an inadequate and incomplete summary for the conditions of unity. Now that was either wishful thinking, dishonesty or incompetence... Take your pick. Not a good choice when one is dealing with a formal international agreement.

 

[Woosh]

How.... can someone explain to me how this can happen???

Ireland is the EU, so in single market. Yes? So goods and people can flow into Ireland with no checks.

So with no border with NI, they can flow into the UK.

So how can we spend millions having a border at Dover to give the impression of a border when the back door isn't just wide open... its not even there!

The lack of logic with this plan is baffling.

it's not illogical.
Checks are made of course at airports. You do spot check in towns like you do with routine police work.
People do not just 'vanish' when they are in NI or ROI. They need a place to live and work.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

it's not illogical.
Checks are made of course at airports. You do spot check in towns like you do with routine police work.
People do not just 'vanish' when they are in NI or ROI. They need a place to live and work.

it is illogical.

What is the point of having a border in some places and not others. Consistency is the only the only logical way of doing anything legal.

You're talking about people, but what about goods? Surely I can just get KTM's shipped to Ireland and then drive and get them? Bypassing all the tariffs?

 

[Danidl]

it's not illogical.
Checks are made of course at airports. You do spot check in towns like you do with routine police work.
People do not just 'vanish' when they are in NI or ROI. They need a place to live and work.

We have a grand history of people vanishing.
So Irish immigration has to implement full passport control of all EU citizens arriving at our ports, and get them to fill up hotel registration data and check up on these on a daily basis?. We then have to check that not a single bicycle smuggled across the border doesn't get into a container at Rosslare, for shipping into the continent.

 

[Woosh]

We have a grand history of people vanishing.
So Irish immigration has to implement full passport control of all EU citizens arriving at our ports, and get them to fill up hotel registration data and check up on these on a daily basis?. We then have to check that not a single bicycle smuggled across the border doesn't get into a container at Rosslare, for shipping into the continent.

you see a police state. You should see NI/ROI as a mini Schengen area.
The vast majority of people are law abiding, have nothing to hide. A few EU citizens may want to come to the UK to work, they will just come as tourists and stay, no visa needed.