Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

OG, I have experienced worse than just living in poverty but I spare you the details. Suffice to say that most of the people who work with me are in the groups that have more pressing concerns than socialism.

Have they indeed? that is no excuse for not caring yourself, is it? no reason to seek personal financial advatage, which after all is the motivation behind the push for Brexit from Politicians, they are not wanting it for any other reason than Greed, like vultures hovering to feed upon a stricken animal.

Why anyone should imagine May and co have the interest of the General Public at heart is a source of wonder and dismay that people can be that gullible.

Easier to get blood out of a stone that a charitable act out of a Tory.

 

[Woosh]

no reason to seek personal financial advatage,

If I look at my personal financial advantage, then I would say brexit is a crime.
The issue for the poorest among us is job security, not more competition from uncontrolled immigration.

 

[oldgroaner]

If I look at my personal financial advantage, then I would say brexit is a crime.
The issue for the poorest among us is job security, not more competition from uncontrolled immigration.

Job security? as in "If you don't like the lousy pay and conditions, there are plenty more waiting at the gate who will?"
Thats exactly how it was in the late Fifties and what will come back again, made worse as there are no unions now.
The poor are going to find out the hard way, exactly as happened in the past.
If they imagine it will turn out otherwise they are being very foolish.
Look at how there is an inquisition before anyone can get benefits, the writing is on the wall in Huge letters.
Blackmail will drive wages down not up, otherwise what would be the point of the Politiciand wanting Brexit?
What's in it for them except cheaper labour ?

 

[Woosh]

Job security? as in "If you don't like the lousy pay and conditions, there are plenty more waiting at the gate who will?"

that is exactly the impression one of my colleagues has got when he went to a job trial day.
The majority of this factory's staff come from outside the UK.
I don't have to go very far, outside my shop, there is an abandoned car. Two, 3 youths squat in there.
That's progress after 40 years of membership.

 

[oldgroaner]

From the Mirror
"
Tories have left Britain defenceless as huge cuts in forces highlight their breathtaking hypocrisy
Labour MP Dan Jarvis, who is also a war veteran, said Tory MPs should be "embarrassed" by the damage their party has done to our armed forces
They have even sold recruitement!
"Army recruitment, which the Tories have contracted out to private firm Capita, has been called a disaster."
"Army numbers have fallen from 102,000 to just below 80,000 – the fewest since the 1850s. The RAF and Royal Navy have also been slashed."

So much for defending our Borders, which in Practical Terms can only mean London within the M25

 

[Zlatan]

OG
Are you saying Brexit or our Tort government will lead to further exploitation of our workforce ? Or perhaps the combination ??
I ask because if you are attributing our leaving EU then where were the safeguards to stop raising of retirement age, worsening working conditions for teachers, nurses, doctors, fire service and civil servants, increasing retirement age for fire service,??Throughout all these your EU stopped nothing, so if it couldn't stop those how was it going to protect workers rights in future.
The writing was on the wall in many institutions that worsening conditions were coming fifteen years ago.I was one of lucky ones and had my own employment to fall back into. So yes what you say may well be correct, we might see worsening conditions under Brexit, but not because of Brexit. The process you state has been going on for years,in EU or out will make no difference. What is needed is a credible labour movement, which Blair destroyed. So when you level your complaints don't aim them at Brexit voters aim them at Blair, Campbell and even Corbyn..its simply because we don't have a caring government we are in a mess. Putting your hopes in such as Junker is just so naive. He,s as bad if not far worse than any of our current mob, and as Flecc argues ,EU hadn't the power to stop any worsening conditions . I don't think they want to but that's a different argument.

 

[oldtom]

It is commonly understood that Theresa May is probably the most wooden performer of all the recent PMs at the dispatch box. She does not fare any better in TV interviews or in any public venues where she is required to think on her feet and deal with awkward questions.

This reveals how she deals with matters and allows us to understand why she recites the same old rhetoric time and time again.......


Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

that is exactly the impression one of my colleagues has got when he went to a job trial day.
The majority of this factory's staff come from outside the UK.
I don't have to go very far, outside my shop, there is an abandoned car. Two, 3 youths squat in there.
That's progress after 40 years of membership.

Well done, tell me how do you connect that with the EU? do you think for even a second it will change when we are out?

That situation is brought about by local policies, nothing whatever to do with the EU, and will only get far worse when we are out.
Tell me just what you are expecting from the Tory party that will change that?
Except perhaps double the numbers desperate for a job, willing to do anything?

So immediately after Brexit there will be a magical change for the better under a benign and far seeing Tory policy of providing well paid permanent work where people can get a home and save for a pension?

Is this what you are saying? come on now let's hear what you are expecting.
Anything less than that will lead to civil unrest in the end, because the masses have been led to expect great things.

Let's hear it from you, is this change for the better to really come, and don't try the "in ten years" nonsense.
people are expecting it right now.

 

[Woosh]

OG
Are you saying Brexit or our Tort government will lead to further exploitation of our workforce ? Or perhaps the combination ??
I ask because if you are attributing our leaving EU then where were the safeguards to stop raising of retirement age, worsening working conditions for teachers, nurses, doctors, fire service and civil servants, increasing retirement age for fire service,??Throughout all these your EU stopped nothing, so if it couldn't stop those how was it going to protect workers rights in future.
The writing was on the wall in many institutions that worsening conditions were coming fifteen years ago.I was one of lucky ones and had my own employment to fall back into. So yes what you say may well be correct, we might see worsening conditions under Brexit, but not because of Brexit. The process you state has been going on for years,in EU or out will make no difference. What is needed is a credible labour movement, which Blair destroyed. So when you level your complaints don't aim them at Brexit voters aim them at Blair, Campbell and even Corbyn..its simply because we don't have a caring government we are in a mess. Putting your hopes in such as Junker is just so naive. He,s as bad if not far worse than any of our current mob, and as Flecc argues ,EU hadn't the power to stop any worsening conditions . I don't think they want to but that's a different argument.

OG sees only what he wants to see.

 

[oldgroaner]

OG
Are you saying Brexit or our Tort government will lead to further exploitation of our workforce ? Or perhaps the combination ??
I ask because if you are attributing our leaving EU then where were the safeguards to stop raising of retirement age, worsening working conditions for teachers, nurses, doctors, fire service and civil servants, increasing retirement age for fire service,??Throughout all these your EU stopped nothing, so if it couldn't stop those how was it going to protect workers rights in future.
The writing was on the wall in many institutions that worsening conditions were coming fifteen years ago.I was one of lucky ones and had my own employment to fall back into. So yes what you say may well be correct, we might see worsening conditions under Brexit, but not because of Brexit. The process you state has been going on for years,in EU or out will make no difference. What is needed is a credible labour movement, which Blair destroyed. So when you level your complaints don't aim them at Brexit voters aim them at Blair, Campbell and even Corbyn..its simply because we don't have a caring government we are in a mess. Putting your hopes in such as Junker is just so naive. He,s as bad if not far worse than any of our current mob, and as Flecc argues ,EU hadn't the power to stop any worsening conditions . I don't think they want to but that's a different argument.

As usual you see what you want to see, laying the blame at the wrong door, where the Government has obstructed EU reforms, you blame them, as usual.

 

[oldgroaner]

OG sees only what he wants to see.

I see the obvious truth, not your little pipedream

 

[Woosh]

I see the obvious truth, not your little pipedream

I don't smoke and I love maps and graphs.
Here is one, Le Pen won in Pas-de-Calais and Aisne.
Can you see the similarity?

 

[Zlatan]

As usual you see what you want to see, laying the blame at the wrong door, where the Government has obstructed EU reforms, you blame them, as usual.

No I did not. I said they were powerless to stop worsening conditions and probably didn't want to.
Its you that cant see they real problem , which is ...no alternative to Tories...abd then ask why.. Because Blair lied about WMD, killed thousands of people, started a conflict that wont end in our lifetimes and because of this produced a complete U turn in labour thinking...giving us Corbyn. Both enelectable for completely different reasons but never the less destroying Labour..
Your arguments re Brexit are actually superflous. All things you worry about would, or could, happen whilst in EU..( ie just look at last 15 years OG)

 

[tillson]

Job security? as in "If you don't like the lousy pay and conditions, there are plenty more waiting at the gate who will?"
Thats exactly how it was in the late Fifties and what will come back again, made worse as there are no unions now.
The poor are going to find out the hard way, exactly as happened in the past.
If they imagine it will turn out otherwise they are being very foolish.
Look at how there is an inquisition before anyone can get benefits, the writing is on the wall in Huge letters.
Blackmail will drive wages down not up, otherwise what would be the point of the Politiciand wanting Brexit?
What's in it for them except cheaper labour ?

You are correct about much of this, but none of it will be influenced by BREXIT. Employment terms and conditions, falling pay and the weakening of trade union's power has been an ongoing process for many years in this country. Our membership of the EU has not provided any respite from attacks on workers rights and has probably accelerated falling pay. The latter being due to labour forces from poorer EU countries coming to Britain, working harder, providing a better service and all for lower wages.

Therefore, I don't understand your last sentence, "What's in it for them except cheaper labour?" They have cheap labour by the bucket full and that is provided by EU membership and free movement of cheaper labour forces. I recently took my VW to the main dealer where THE ENTIRE service team staff were Polish. This is because under EU membership, the business can hire a Polish technician cheaper than a UK resident. They can offer lower wages because, as you put it, there are plenty waiting at the factory gates to do the job if you don't want it. EU membership has gifted us that and the associated zero hours contract and the lack of investment in training our youngsters.

I think many Tory party members and politicians in general wanted continued EU membership for the reasons set out above, cheap labour and the associated higher profits. And that is why many of them campaigned so vigorously to remain in the EU. It is also why Corbyn is not enthusiastic about EU membership, he can see the negative affect it has had on employment conditions.

 

[oldtom]

There's nothing wrong with Major's memory!



Tom

 

[flecc]

If Macron cannot solve the problem of 10% unemployment and terrorism soon, Marine will be back in 5 years time, much, much stronger.

Well back in this thread I said that le Pen will never do much better in France than a third of the vote, and that is what has happened. She wouldn't even have done this well if the turnout had been better.

I think the French revulsion of the right will always produce this ceiling for possibly far right parties like hers, so I'll confidently forecast now that a third will again be that party's ceiling next time, no matter what happens meanwhile.
.

 

[Woosh]

A lot of people would have voted for Fillon were he to reach the second round. Fillon is fundamentally a eurosceptic, not a million miles from Le Pen as far as the EU is concerned. Le Pen will for ever be stuck with the name she's given and her dad did not help by telling voters a few days before that 'she hasn't changed' when she ditched the leadership of the FN. The guy she handed the FN to has also a worse than bad reputation.
I am more worried for Macron. He reminds me of Barak Obama when the battle cry was 'change'. France is crying out for change and who is going to promise change next time if Macron fails?

 

[flecc]

France is crying out for change and who is going to promise change next time if Macron fails?

Change means new, so maybe another newcomer. Over a year ago who'd have thought Macron would be where he is now.

Apart from all her other disadvantages, time and history is making Marine le Pen increasingly part of the old guard, and will be even more so next time. This latest result shows how tired the French are with the old offerings, tired enough to take risks.

After all, when many Americans considered newcomer Obama had failed, they didn't go for the old guard, they went for another newcomer in Trump.
.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Is there anything that Leave promised that's going to come true??

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

A lot of people would have voted for Fillon were he to reach the second round. Fillon is fundamentally a eurosceptic, not a million miles from Le Pen as far as the EU is concerned. Le Pen will for ever be stuck with the name she's given and her dad did not help by telling voters a few days before that 'she hasn't changed' when she ditched the leadership of the FN. The guy she handed the FN to has also a worse than bad reputation.
I am more worried for Macron. He reminds me of Barak Obama when the battle cry was 'change'. France is crying out for change and who is going to promise change next time if Macron fails?

The French will at least be able to watch the UK... if the "blame everyone" else politics we're currently pursuing works then they'll know. If as I personally expect, we discover that immigrants and the EU aren't the problems in the UK, then those in France will see that following this route won't benefit them.