Brexit, for once some facts.

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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The EU should not have enlarged so quickly.
The rules of the Euro should have been more flexible, Greece should not have been allowed to join.
The sad thing is that the motivation for the initial formation of the European project was the avoidance of future war. That dictated the inclusion of a batch of countries that had fundamental incompatibilities.

If we could start again I would like to see a set of trading and ultimately political unions across Europe:

The Mediterranean one of Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece, Cyprus and Malta.

The core European one of Germany, France, Austria, The Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg.

The Scandinavian one of Denmark, Sweden, Norway (which would have joined this form), Finland, Iceland and Greenland.

And finally the ex Warsaw Pact one of the largely Slavic countries.

All of those could have economies that worked, combined with the inclusion of compatible cultures and histories. The old Warsaw pact group would have formed a valuable buffer between Russia and the rest of Europe, since it could form a cultural bridge, given its past associations with both sides.

Trading and mutual defence agreements between all four bodies could have established a peaceful and jointly beneficial future.

Unfortunately that ideal scenario is now impossible, largely thanks to the harmful effects of US policies over the years since WW2.
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oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer

The EU should have offered Cameron a better deal, brexit could have been avoided.
Why should the EU offer another discount to the UK when we already have preferential terms, better than the other nett contributors? The referendum result would most probably still have been the same in any case as economics played only a minor part of the argument by the right-wing extremists.


Even if Mme Le Pen does not win this time, her message chimes with a lot of Europeans.
No it doesn't; it only resonates with right-wing extremists so that is thousands against millions.


The EU should not have enlarged so quickly.
So quickly? How many decades should it have taken then to get to its current stage? This concept should be advanced as quickly as possible as it represents the best opportunity for a peaceful Europe, in harmony with common benefits and ideals, ending centuries of division with all the attendant ills brought about by war and the unquenchable greed of the rich and powerful.


The rules of the Euro should have been more flexible, Greece should not have been allowed to join.
That is just utter nonsense - you really haven't grasped the fundamentals of European integration.


So before the EU moves ahead with more 'integration', it has to be minded that it does not become a superstate, a new empire.
As I said, you just don't get the fundamentals and you seem to have forgotten that it's impossible to make an omelette without cracking some eggs.

Tom
 
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tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
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Thank goodness someone understands the root of the problem! We in the west, or more precisely the UK, gave the people of the middle-east a cause due to our vile treatment of the Arab nations as demonstrated in British foreign policy over several generations. That same foreign policy extended over parts of Africa, India, Australia, the Americas and, closer to home, Ireland and Scotland.

Even today, long after the term 'empire' was dropped, the British government continues to hold dominion over far-flung parts of the world that the vast majority of citizens could not pinpoint on a map.

While waging war against poorly armed and poorly defended countries in the middle-east, the British government has repeatedly proclaimed that the UK supports Israel and declares that Israel has every right to defend itself against aggression. Given that millions in north Africa and the middle-east are of the moslem faith, it is hardly surprising that militant elements in those places subjected to various forms of abuse and mistreatment at the hands of the UK and its friends might feel hatred towards the people who have caused their ongoing distress.

It is no different from the situation that provoked the Scots and the Irish to rebel at various times against the bullying English crown and subsequently, the British parliament. The Americans and the Indians eventually kicked us out of their territories because they were big enough and strong enough whereas the little countries continued to be mistreated by their English masters. That is ongoing - witness the attitude towards both Scotland and the people of N.Ireland over 'Brexit' from the party which represents only the rich and the land-owning elements of society through the oligarchy that poses as democratic government in the UK.

Perhaps if the UK government were to dissociate this country from Israel, Saudi Arabia, the USA and the UAE, we might gain some respect from those nations persecuted by ourselves in conjunction with the aforementioned. It might also help, eventually, to alter the way in which this country is viewed by those militant elements who currently believe we are fair game in their evil, revengeful campaign of terror. We can never win against the kind of enemy prepared to act as we have witnessed so many times in recent years since the 2001 events in New York demonstrated what can be achieved by determined people with nothing to lose. It is for that reason, that those who would claim outrages such as 7/7 and Wednesday's lone-wolf suicide mission are wrong to declare such events as failures. To do so is to fail to understand terrorism and if there were no terrorism, there would be no anti-terrorism branch within our security services, a great many of whom were quickly on the scene at Westminster on Wednesday, unsurprisingly too late to be of any use.

Just how does one explain to the families of those murdered by an Islamist-inspired nutter on Wednesday or to the family of Jo Cox MP, brutally slain last year by another kind of nutter, that it's ok - the outrage was a failure so nothing to worry about? Let's all just carry on regardless. There can be no doubt that Wednesday's shocking events will not be the last act of terrorism on British soil and that will continue as long as the UK and its friends treat other human beings so badly that they feel there is no point in living in this world. Selective foreign aid for some while only missiles, bombs and bullets for others is a strange kind of foreign policy.

Tom
There is never a reason to murder. Stop apologising to these killers.
 
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oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
There is never a reason to murder. Stop apologising to these killers.
Sorry, shouldn't your remarks be directed towards the H of C, the members thereof being the people who have always taken the decisions to murder innocent people in your name?

I am no apologist for those who murder or indeed commit any form of criminal behaviour. It is you and those like you who created the situation we are in today through your attitude with arrogance, pomposity and warlike behaviour towards peoples in other lands. When people are brutalised unceasingly for generations, even the most powerful bullies should not be surprised when the victim responds by fighting dirty.

Surely even your twisted intellect can understand that!

Tom
 

Woosh

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RED CARD!
I took the quote from the Guardian article that I supplied a link to, the article did not have your verbatim quote, please read it, you will see why I came to interpret that Mr Juncker may have meant it a tragedy for the EU.

I did put my interpretation '(for the EU)' between parentheses after separating Mr Juncker's words in ''.
I never have intentionally misquoted anyone, politicians or not, nor ever will, to make a point.
Apology for not fact checking this quote.

JC Juncker said 'brexit is a failure and a tragedy' (for the EU).
 

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,252
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Sorry, shouldn't your remarks be directed towards the H of C, the members thereof being the people who have always taken the decisions to murder innocent people in your name?

I am no apologist for those who murder or indeed commit any form of criminal behaviour. It is you and those like you who created the situation we are in today through your attitude with arrogance, pomposity and warlike behaviour towards peoples in other lands. When people are brutalised unceasingly for generations, even the most powerful bullies should not be surprised when the victim responds by fighting dirty.

Surely even your twisted intellect can understand that!

Tom
I'm afraid that you are still apologising. Unfortunately, you have been selecting and digesting reading material which has ultimately corroded your mind.
 
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Woosh

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That is just utter nonsense - you really haven't grasped the fundamentals of European integration.
OK. Please explain to me the logic of the Greek bailout.
 
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anotherkiwi

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Jan 26, 2015
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OK. Please explain to me the logic of the Greek bailout.
Follow the money... Money is given to Greece so that it can reimburse the banks it borrowed from.
 
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Woosh

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Follow the money... Money is given to Greece so that it can reimburse the banks it borrowed from.
I understand that part. Robbing everyone who holds the euro to re-imburse the banks. Just that I have difficulty in reconciling the harm the ECB did to Greece and the young generation of Greeks with Oldtom's EU integration omelette.
How long do you think before Greece can reduce its sovereign debts to the Eurozone's average?
 
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D8ve

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Jan 30, 2013
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There is never a reason to murder. Stop apologising to these killers.
I agree no reason for murder. British American tobacco are one of the first groups I would go for. Killers for money.
 

anotherkiwi

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Jan 26, 2015
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I understand that part. Robbing everyone who holds the euro to re-imburse the banks. Just that I have difficulty in reconciling the harm the ECB did to Greece and the young generation of Greeks with Oldtom's EU integration omelette.
How long do you think before Greece can reduce its sovereign debts to the Eurozone's average?
I'll repeat myself: the US used Goldman Sachs to get Greece into the Euro, when it shouldn't have been because it didn't meet the criteria, with the idea to weaken and destroy the money most able to cast a shadow over their world domination. Greece has billionaires and the worlds largest merchant fleet. These people don't pay any tax. What the ECB and the IMF and all the other banks have done is show that they don't care about people at all, only balance sheets.

Greece should be out of the Euro zone. The ECB and the commission should be helping the Greek government fight corruption and tax evasion. Stamp out corruption and things will slowly come right but you would be going against thousands of years of Greek tradition...
 
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Woosh

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I read your previous post about Greek debts, that why I asked oldtom for his view about the eurozone and the ECB.
If oldtom were as realistic as you are, this thread may have been much shorter.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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The purpose of terrorism is to produce a lasting coercive affect. The short term disruption is a by-product. In other words to induce a long term alteration to people's pattern of behaviour. This then has an economic and / or socially destabilising consequence,
This could describe the 48% who voted to leave the EU.

No doubt ISIS will be content to see this country tearing itself apart.
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Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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I'll repeat myself: the US used Goldman Sachs to get Greece into the Euro, when it shouldn't have been because it didn't meet the criteria, with the idea to weaken and destroy the money most able to cast a shadow over their world domination. Greece has billionaires and the worlds largest merchant fleet. These people don't pay any tax. What the ECB and the IMF and all the other banks have done is show that they don't care about people at all, only balance sheets.

Greece should be out of the Euro zone. The ECB and the commission should be helping the Greek government fight corruption and tax evasion. Stamp out corruption and things will slowly come right but you would be going against thousands of years of Greek tradition...
But that is EU in a nutshell ( literally) Greece are in, as are Portugal, Italy and Spain. Using your criteria how many if those would be in. Italy certainly would not on the corruption issue and any fiscal health check policy would rule all of them out.
EU has great ideals but zero chance of attaining them. It simply can not work with such disparate economies, all trying to work under essentially German fiscal control.
Said it before but all EU countries need power to devalue currency, many realised this but were bought out with cheap interest, bailouts etc..Which can never replace a country's ability to devalue currency when appropriate. Anybody thinking otherwise has simply bought into the EU BS and propoganda.
Its all been a massive experiment, albeit a just one but unfortunately doomed.
Only way EU could ever work is day when capital moved easier than.people. Yes, freedom of movement is a magnificent ideal but without similar movements of investment ultimately will always lead to farce we have now. Why on earth is it deemed moral to expect migrants to move to countries to do work nationals are ill prepared to do on salaries offered. The higher moral reasoning suggests send investment other way, but that would mean massive corporations and governments taking investment risks, they will not ( tp any massive degree) so feeble minded chant folk should be allowed to go other way, and justify it on some corrupted humanitarian wrong; allowing such is tantamount to slavery.
Why isn't investment flowing into Greece,Italy,Portugal...( or anywhere with high unemployment,low standard of living)because we all know it won't work..so what the hell is EU doing..just allowing its citizens free access to places investment does work. That's at best flawed.
EU and its followers make all the right noises but when it comes to crunch refuse to do what is needed. ie) heavy investment in all struggling economies. EU does not want that, it would mean a fairer redistribution of wealth. They are happy with rich getting richer and feck the poor.
 
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Kudoscycles

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Apr 15, 2011
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The quitting of Carswell from UKIP must be the last death spasms of UKIP,it can only be a matter of time before this front for the EDL dies,wonder where Farage is going off to do more damage,perhaps he will try to join the Tories?
I am advised that Article 50 is now history and we are into Article 218 now.
Personally I am becoming bored with Brexit,it appears that May will take us into who knows where and then it is a matter of time before some of the Leavers wake up to Brexit not achieving their dreams....the only gainers out of Brexit could be the wealthy right wingers,the U.K. could go back 40 years.
KudosDave
 
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Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
8,611
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The quitting of Carswell from UKIP must be the last death spasms of UKIP,it can only be a matter of time before this front for the EDL dies,wonder where Farage is going off to do more damage,perhaps he will try to join the Tories?
I am advised that Article 50 is now history and we are into Article 218 now.
Personally I am becoming bored with Brexit,it appears that May will take us into who knows where and then it is a matter of time before some of the Leavers wake up to Brexit not achieving their dreams....the only gainers out of Brexit could be the wealthy right wingers,the U.K. could go back 40 years.
KudosDave
.. from my superficial reading , article 50 is the only game in town until after the final expulsion, then article 218 could then be appropriate.
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
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80
But that is EU in a nutshell ( literally) Greece are in, as are Portugal, Italy and Spain. Using your criteria how many if those would be in. Italy certainly would not on the corruption issue and any fiscal health check policy would rule all of them out.
EU has great ideals but zero chance of attaining them. It simply can not work with such disparate economies, all trying to work under essentially German fiscal control.
Said it before but all EU countries need power to devalue currency, many realised this but were bought out with cheap interest, bailouts etc..Which can never replace a country's ability to devalue currency when appropriate. Anybody thinking otherwise has simply bought into the EU BS and propoganda.
Its all been a massive experiment, albeit a just one but unfortunately doomed.
Only way EU could ever work is day when capital moved easier than.people. Yes, freedom of movement is a magnificent ideal but without similar movements of investment ultimately will always lead to farce we have now. Why on earth is it deemed moral to expect migrants to move to countries to do work nationals are ill prepared to do on salaries offered. The higher moral reasoning suggests send investment other way, but that would mean massive corporations and governments taking investment risks, they will not ( tp any massive degree) so feeble minded chant folk should be allowed to go other way, and justify it on some corrupted humanitarian wrong; allowing such is tantamount to slavery.
Why isn't investment flowing into Greece,Italy,Portugal...( or anywhere with high unemployment,low standard of living)because we all know it won't work..so what the hell is EU doing..just allowing its citizens free access to places investment does work. That's at best flawed.
EU and its followers make all the right noises but when it comes to crunch refuse to do what is needed. ie) heavy investment in all struggling economies. EU does not want that, it would mean a fairer redistribution of wealth. They are happy with rich getting richer and feck the poor.
I have some truly awful news for you
Brexit is also an experiment doomed to failure on many grounds
  1. The Government don't intend the Public to gain the benefits they have been promised.
  2. Even if this was their intention we lack the means to make it happen, and they are incompetent anyway, we will simply get further into Debt
  3. We entered the Common Market after accepting we couldn't survive and thrive on our own despite have much greater levels of industry and technology than competitive nations, and now they have left us behind.
  4. The "people" will react badly when this experiment fails.
What will your excuse be when the Proverbial hits the fan?
You wanted this and accepted and spread lies in favour of this mad experiment.
Will you conveniently deny you did?
I recommend this approach, unless you don't want to have any friends of course.
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
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Brexit is also an experiment doomed to failure on many grounds
You should have listened to Keir Starmer - his new catchphrase is 'partnership not membership'.
Starmer made it clear that Labour's condition for supporting brexit is a deal with the EU.
Mrs May and her cohort of hard line brexiters may be driving the process but at the end, they can't risk the union with Scotland.
 

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