Dave, we should continue doing exactly that and close that other tap, the source of cheaper labourers from the EU.
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
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What makes you think they are cheap?? Do you think all the Doctors in the NHS are cheap? Certainly all the EU people I know who work in the bike industry aren't paid any less. They are here because we need them, they are here because our economy is strong, and equally our economy is strong because they are here.
Which part of the EU workforce that currently here do you think is "cheap labour" that is taking jobs from people in the UK? I don't think we have an employment problem do we?
You see this is a classic example of the desperation of the remain lobby. They find it necessary to fabricate situations which do not exist.
Leave has never ever been about stopping immigration. It's been about controlling immigration. Targeting the skills and talents which the UK needs.
The fact that we are trying to attract immigrant maths teachers dovetails perfectly with BREXIT.
We don't require goat herders, so under BREXIT, a time served apprentice goat herder would be looked upon less favourably than a maths graduate. Can you see how it works?
So stop the feeble attempt at portraying BREXIT as a kick'em all out campaign. It's not and you know it isn't. If that's what you have descended to doing in order to further the remain campaign, then you have lost.
Employers overwork those on conveyor belt jobs.
If you stop exploitative employment, you will improve social cohesion.
There are two basic ways that UK government can stop exploitative employment of EU migrants and immigrants: issue permits for temporary transfer of workers to EU firms, for example those that contract out their lorry drivers, and issuing working permits to all EU immigrants. Then revise those permits every 3 months.
We are in a situation say with in the NHS with ancillary jobs such as cleaning, catering, domestic, and healthcare assistant jobs need doing at all levels and the folk willing to do it at minimum wage (hired by private companies to provide services pushed for by government - and these contracted companies aren't doing it for charity but for their shareholders). Many of these folk are vastly overqualified and from Europe willing and able to get up at 5am for long shifts where our mimum wage jobs far surpasses what they can earn at home.
I was in Colchester hospital as a patient (a change from working there myself!) earlier this year which featured a cosmopolitan cast from the surgeons to the tea lady - and unfortunately opposite me was and architypal UKIP voting old boy voter from Tendring moaning about foreigners behind their backs (not realising I'm the son of a Hungarian refugee from '56 kindly accepted here as I blend in quite well, passing Tebbit's cricket test and fondness of warm beer ;-) - yet if it wasn't for the Italian nurse who would have answered his buzzer in the middle of night to offer him reassurances and take his temperature. Or the Pakistani surgeon who was on call to operate on him on Sunday night, or the Estonian tea lady who poured his first refreshing post op cup of tea, and the Polish lady with a maths degree who served him a hot lunch (veggies probably also picked by an unskilled migrant worker)... he would have a long wait to be unconditionaly and timely cared for by purely British passport holders.
Tillson be careful for what you wish for as only when it's gone will you realise what you had.
I can't disagree with nearly all of what you have written. I see the problem being that with a big pool of people willing to be exploited and work for minimum wage, minimum wage and exploitation will continue. The private companies who employ these people will see their pockets fill with money off the back of this.
It's supply and demand.
Once again 'Woosh', you have demonstrated your inability to construct a sound argument either for 'Brexit' or against it. Instead, you attack me for having 'blind faith' in the leader of HM Opposition Party.
It's interesting that you clearly read my post #10050, prompted by your remarks in post #10009, yet chose to ignore my point, going on to state instead in post #10052:
With regard to your disgusting remark about Australians, this is their flag:
As you feel that those fine people are undeserving of free movement between their country and the UK, perhaps you'd like to attend the ANZAC day service this year on the 25th April at Westminster Abbey and tell those in attendance why it is your belief they should no longer be made welcome in the UK. I believe tickets go on sale about this time but you can check here:
http://uk.embassy.gov.au/lhlh/EventsAnzacD.html
Now, 'blind faith' seems to me like the only raison d'être those advocating 'Brexit' have left in their locker.
Tom
It's interesting that you clearly read my post #10050, prompted by your remarks in post #10009, yet chose to ignore my point, going on to state instead in post #10052:
I had previously stated very clearly my opinion of Jeremy Corbyn in post #9673:
so once again, you have posted nonsense.
With regard to your disgusting remark about Australians, this is their flag:
As you feel that those fine people are undeserving of free movement between their country and the UK, perhaps you'd like to attend the ANZAC day service this year on the 25th April at Westminster Abbey and tell those in attendance why it is your belief they should no longer be made welcome in the UK. I believe tickets go on sale about this time but you can check here:
http://uk.embassy.gov.au/lhlh/EventsAnzacD.html
Now, 'blind faith' seems to me like the only raison d'être those advocating 'Brexit' have left in their locker.
Tom
Do you remember the TV programme where the Beeb took 4 young Brits who were complaining that EU workers were taking all the farm work in the area of Lincoln.
They got them work on a local farm,2 failed to bother to get up to work.
A 23 year old unfit Brit guy,was paid minimum wage but expected to cut an agreed amount of asparagus each day,his fellow Polish workers achieved the minimum and cut the crop carefully to the standard length ,they often gained a bonus each day,hard work but lucrative.
The Polish boss kept warning the Brit that he wasn't quick enough and also that he wasn't carefull in cutting the right ones to the right length,he was losing the farmer money.
Amusingly the 23 lump of lard said he was going to 'dock' the super fit and lean Polish boss,the camera guy warned him that was probably not a good idea,hehe!!!!
The Brit lasted only a few days saying that it wasn't the sort of work he wanted and went back on benefits.
I worked hard as a teenager picking strawberries,back breaking work and hard on the knees but lucrative if you stuck at it,got very fit in the hot weather,met my wife....it just seems that many of our teenagers are just not prepared to work hard these days,life is too easy.
If we stop the Polish coming over to pick our crops then farmers must choose whether growing the crops is worthwhile.
KudosDave
oldtom,
Why do you imagine that I have made a disgusting remark to Australia? Is it because I do not approve of freedom of movement? If it is, then your point is totally without basis. Freedom of movement in the UN Human Rights Convention differs substantially from the single market's, the UN recognizes countries' borders. I suggest you do a bit more fact checking before rushing to post,
Mr Corbyn wants brexit, the single market and freedom of movement. If he understands at all the motivation of labour voters who voted for brexit, he would have opposed triggering of A50 in haste, worked with other parties on the white paper and insisted on a free vote after approving the white paper so that MPs can vote with their constituencies if they so chose.
Instead, he choses to be a stooge of the tories, re-enforcing their tiny majority. No wonder every shade of the political spectrum does not take him seriously.
By the way, I wonder if you are ever going to stop putting down people who disagree with you.
Why do you imagine that I have made a disgusting remark to Australia? Is it because I do not approve of freedom of movement? If it is, then your point is totally without basis. Freedom of movement in the UN Human Rights Convention differs substantially from the single market's, the UN recognizes countries' borders. I suggest you do a bit more fact checking before rushing to post,
Mr Corbyn wants brexit, the single market and freedom of movement. If he understands at all the motivation of labour voters who voted for brexit, he would have opposed triggering of A50 in haste, worked with other parties on the white paper and insisted on a free vote after approving the white paper so that MPs can vote with their constituencies if they so chose.
Instead, he choses to be a stooge of the tories, re-enforcing their tiny majority. No wonder every shade of the political spectrum does not take him seriously.
By the way, I wonder if you are ever going to stop putting down people who disagree with you.
Why should we close off labourers from the EU? They are doing jobs well that Brits no longer want to do.
Anyway,I don't think that Czech teachers are going to be cheap labour,I am sure they will want a fair rate for their qualification and ability.
One of the problems is that Maths and Science are hard work at school and Uni,much softer options are media studies or beach management....that is why we haven't got skills in the right areas.
KudosDave
Really! As it happens, I know only a little of Marx's views on society so I wouldn't know how closely my political views are to his.
I can tell you that my philosophy is somewhere along the lines of Clement Atlee and Nye Bevan. You can add a dash of that mythical chap, Robin Hood, as I liked the ethos contained in the story. I also respect that chap, Jesus, that the Christian people admire for his attitude towards his fellow man. Mix in a bit of Tony Benn and Arthur Scargill, Tony Banks and even the James brothers from the wild west for their efforts at redistributing wealth
.I am also an admirer of Mahatma Gandhi, Florence Nightingale, Andrew Carnegie, the Lever brothers, the Cadbury brothers, Robert Burns and all those good people who actually care about their fellow man, in some of those cases using their enormous wealth to enrich the lives of ordinary people while enjoying the fruits of the labour of those ordinary people.
The rest of your post, Mike, becomes irrelevant now that you have a better understanding of why I express the views I do and you are able to see I do not support violence against and exploitation of ordinary people, from whatever source it may arise.
If you were my neighbour and needed help, I would not hesitate to come to your assistance, just as I would for a stranger and your politics don't come into it. Mi casa es su casa.
Tom
Damn right there's a demand otherwise a lot of bums won't get wiped, so what reason is there to deliberately cut oneself off from a EU workforce - prior to that coming from Asia, Caribbean and Ireland etc. to do the jobs that need doing from the bottom up.
Do you foresee as replacement, coming from Trump's USA his surplus Hispanic labour in exchange for trade deals to plug the workforce gap ... as the tories have just just about targeted/ scapegoated out all the single mums, disabled and shirkers from the dole queues into accepting zero hours contract jobs.
As I mentioned before in my hometown in the dim and distant past in the 16th Century it actively sought Dutch/Flemish migrants to bolster workforce in the milling trade by over 10% of the town's population (1291 people out of 10,000 - we still have a Dutch Quarter in town). The town as a result became prosperous enough to pay cash compensation to Parliament after the civil war - ironically enough for the damage caused by Parliamentarian army during their seige of the town!
Do you really not understand? Perhaps you should speak to an Australian or take a walk through an ANZAC cemetery.
Tom
No I can't see how it works,we need a mix of skills to do all the tasks in our country,which Brits are either not qualified or too lazy to do.
We need Maths teachers in our schools,we need receptionists in our hotels,we need fit Poles to work in the fields,we need cleaners to work in our hotels,we need medics to keep the NHS running...my local hospital is pretty much run by non Brits,if they left it would close.
We don't want a system that filters only qualified people,we need a system that attracts those we need of all levels of expertise.....ideally we would employ local Brits,but have you interviewed the quality of employee available from the job exchange,many of these I wouldn't employ if I was paid to take them,they would be disruptive to my good guys.
Before you think I am a cheap labour employer,the minimum wage in my warehouse is £21k and most are better paid but I have a high margin business that can afford it,if I was a farmer I would have to look towards Europe.
Do you really think that post Brexit May is going to be able to control immigration....we already have the right to stop non EU immigrants but are not able to do so,so why should May be able after to control EU immigration post Brexit.
I was speaking to a Dutch guy who could not understand why we feel the need to employ so many from Eastern Europe,most jobs in Holland are done by locals and are happy to do so.....We agreed to not understand why?
KudosDave
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Built into the single market are the four freedoms that have been instrumental in lowering labour unit cost for businesses. Freedom of service has a huge detrimental effect on local authorities. Let me give you another true story, this time, the boot is on the other foot. I know a girl who works as ski chalet girl for a famous tour operator that I shall not name. I had a long chat with her one evening (totally innocent, I assure you) about her working conditions. I was totally flabbergasted about how little these girls are paid, the long hours they work, where they sleep, their pension, the lack of local healthcare provision insurance etc I can go on but I am sure you get the gist. The reason that the tour operators export UK workers is because they would not or could not hire the local French/Swiss/Italian/German for the same money and conditions.
Ski chalet girls have always been badly paid but it's nothing to do with freedom of movement,the job has always been done as a fun job,they rely a lot on tips to make some money.
If you want a job that's badly paid because of freedom of movement just look at the cabin crew on locost airlines. Most are from Spain,Italy,Romania etc,they can't get jobs back in their own countries....by the time they have paid for accommodation they are lucky to break even,often subsidised by parents back home. You have O'Leary to blame for that one,but the business model of all the low costs,including BA/Virgin are now similar.....but we all like low cost flights,don't we?
But that applies to so much.....Woosh and Kudos and others sell cheap electric bikes because Asians are willing to assemble them for low wages,but we don't want to pay much more than £1k for an e-bike. The success of Matalan and Primark is only because cheap wages in Pakistan and India make the clothes so cheap,but we buy them ! Ironically Trump wants to insulate America from cheap labour sources so that he can create jobs in the rust belt but will US consumers put up with a big hike in prices to keep jobs in the US? I buy annually a million dollars of product from the US but it is only cheap because it is assembled with Cheap Mexican labour,will Trump's wall increase prices.
Globalisation has given us cheap product will the US and UK consumer be prepared to pay more to employ local labour,I don't think so?
KudosDave
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It was Nick Hewer who presented that program wasn't it? So typical of some youths today. I posted a few days ago a video made by BBC2 newsnight team about the direction of democracy (as predicted in Plato's book). The longer democracy rules, the more democratic society becomes. With it, the seeds of tyrany. Kids demand toys and pocket money from their parents, pupils threaten their teachers and yes, some youths prefer life the way you described. Until somebody (like Mr Trump) proposes to take over.
Brexit won't change any of that. Brexit won't make those 4 lads get up any earlier but it won't worsen the situation.
Currently UK is EU... so all your points are just as valid to UK national workers as EU ones. Leaving the EU won't solve any of the problems you have described. All you're doing is adding a layer of red tape, which will put costs up for UK consumers, we're still going to need the EU workers, they are here because they are vacancies.