Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

What this thread lacks has dogged it right from the start,in that there is no real credible opposition to the proposal that Brexit is a dire mistake.
it's rather like a reversed mirror image of the state of the country,
Except that in this case the difference is in support of the For and against sides of the argument over Brexit.
The FOR Brexit side is woefully under represented, which is a bad thing.
In the present situation of absolute bankruptcy of arguments or evidence in favour of Brexit, and no likelihood of any turning up,what has become he strategy of choice of Brexit support has changed from even trying to use coherent argument, and instead to criticise the right to debate the subject and make the very mention of it taboo.
Once again a reversed image of the state of play in Parliament.
And of course calling people names, or in my case Mad, while amusing and possibly true, doesn't improve or add to the debate,

Is there no one out there who an actually answer Flecc's original plea?
brexit for once some facts, actually on the positive side in favour?
That will stand up to checking and scrutiny?

 

[oldgroaner]

I can at last announce something Positive that Brexit has achieved
From the Express
"
Nigel Farage: Donald Trump wants to give me a job, I'm off to America
NIGEL Farage says he has the connections to build bridges between Britain and the US but says he is unlikely to take a job with Donald Trump – because he is not a US citizen.

And what's not to like about that? as tillson would say "The goodness is flowing!"

 

[oldgroaner]

More good news "The new Brexit Slogan"

 

[derf]

Stark, staring, raving mad!, my thoughts go out to those who share the same house with you

or even boat, on a semi serious note, how about explaining which part of my post was mad?

 

[derf]

Carney (B of E) has been got at by this government through the Brexit process...there was a stage when they wanted the pound to dive,Carney lowered interest rates when he should have raised rates to support the pound,he was obviously not independent.
He is now aware that the civil service and the B of E cannot possibly do all the work on Brexit in 2 years (the EU now want 14 months),May seems to criticise his care.
What is May about? Her interview today suggested a PM who was incapable and frightened of Brexit,quite pathetic.....I have always thought that she had some plan that she would reveal at the right moment,but it worries me that she is delaying in the hope that some miracle will come along to take her out of this mess.
What do other forum members think about May?
KudosDave

call me naïve, but I more or less trust carney, I think he anticipates serious headwinds to the economy, and that he used whatever levers BoE has to try to head it off, and perhaps that's a small part of the reason why the economy is still just about choking along? clearly the uk economy isn't about to turn into a south korea and thrive on exporting product, so ultimately, as carney said recently, there has to be more political rescuing of the economy, it cant only be BoE. i loath Osborne, but carney and Osborne were sincerely close, both in favour of single market, i suspect Hammond is in reality too.

 

[oldgroaner]

or even boat, on a semi serious note, how about explaining which part of my post was mad?

My humble opinion is that you bothered to respond to his?

 

[derf]

My humble opinion is that you bothered to respond to his?

true, but what else to do amidst brexit? here's to hoping blewit returns with an articulate, meaningful rationale for the reason for this mess we've been tipped into

 

[oldgroaner]

true, but what else to do amidst brexit? here's to hoping blewit returns with an articulate, meaningful rationale for the reason for this mess we've been tipped into

I suspect that even Einstein would be pushed to manage that, it comes under the heading.
"There's no reason, it was just a reaction of the sort you get if you put your head into a Lions mouth and bite it's tongue for a £10 wager."
As Cameron did!
(The £10 wager being of course equivalent to the value of the loss of Conservative votes to the UKIP had he failed to so so.)
To his eternal credit he did have the sense to jump ship and make a fine living as a stand up comedian on the "Speaking Circuit"

 

[Zlatan]

I know I,m a newbie on here and wont be staying long( thanks to those that helped on dvp thread) but really do think this thread, its attitude, atmosphere it creates, arguments and insults it leads to are undermining any positive attitudes towards ebikes. If I buy one will fellow bikers harang me whillst outcycling ?? Very odd.

 

[homemoz]

Okay, I am going to respond to the challenge by OG and others to provide an argument for Brexit. First of all the EU has failed to address issues of inequality and powerlessness amongst many people in the UK. Since the 2nd World War, local communities in the UK have been destroyed. I live in East Yorkshire & worked in Hull for many years, so OG will know what I'm talking about in respect of the East Hull & Holderness Rd communities. The alternatives have largely been impersonal estates on the edge of cities i.e. Bransholme or poorly designed tower blocks. The same goes for most cities & towns in the UK. To compound this, council houses were sold off in the 1980's to support what was the experimental ideology of Thatcherism.

Secondly, there is the failure of materialism to provide many people with meaning in life. This was arguably largely gained from close knit communities, the Church and extended families. So know we have a largely fragmented culture driven by consumerism and status for some & powerlessness and despair for others. For example, witness the continued increase in the prescription of anti-depressant medication. Thirdly, the mistrust of Europe by the generation who lived through the 2nd World War or were born soon afterwards, I appreciate this is a generalisation (sorry Flecc & others) - my evidence is the larger numbers of older people who voted for Brexit.

In my work in the NHS. I see a feeling of hopeless, anger & desperation amongst many of the people I see. Many are receiving benefits & completely at the mercy of what they perceive to be an unfair & uncaring system which punishes them for sickness and ill-health. They also perceive others as having access to the privileges that they are denied. An unseen bureaucracy is making decisions for them & the decisions always seem to favour others (parallels with the EU?). Then there is fear - the analogy is that someone has been invited into my house (not by me). They are taking the best rooms and trashing the rest. There are also many more just outside waiting to come in.

Of all these points, for me the key one is powerlessness - hence "Take Back Control". People like Farage, Trump & La Penne are seen as speaking up for those who have been marginalised. By comparison the EU is seen to entirely ignore their concerns. So how could Brexit be otherwise? Perhaps rather than asking leavers to justify Brexit, perhaps the onus is on remainers to justify how we can support a system which is such an abject failure. After with regards to Trump/Farage "cometh the hour, cometh the man". Who is to say that this isn't true?

By the way, I voted Remain & would do so again.

 

[oldtom]

Tom
Perhaps you,d like to explain exactly which part bigoted, which part shamefull ?

Zlatan, the short answer is all of it!

If you really want specifics though, here's some edited parts of your thesis:

for EU to be successful it must become a single nation. Unfortunately there is no way on earth that will ever happen

Most dispassionate commentators would recognise that the EU has been enormously successful over half a century and continues to be a success today.

I don't want to be simply an EU Citizen and neither does another 52% of voting public.

Why say that when you are a British citizen (I assume) and also a citizen of a sovereign EU member state? I would hazard a guess that many people see that as the best of all worlds.

all its individual constituents must hand over sovereignty

You really are unaware of the constitution of the organisation if you believe that. The EU consists of a union of 28 sovereign states. Do you think the French or the Germans, for example, would deny their heritage, history and customs and stop calling themselves French or German as the case may be and describe themselves as from Euland or whatever?

Junkhers and his sycophants are both unelected and far worse

Once again, you reveal a lack of understanding of EU institutions. I don't know to whom you refer as 'sycophants' but in the case of M. Juncker, he is, in fact, an elected official, indeed a hugely important figure as President of the European Commission. The attached link may help you understand just that one fact:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_European_Commission

Blair should be shot, Juhnkers locked up. Cameron deported. Osbourne made to work at some inner city School.

Really! I simply cannot take you seriously with such silly opinions although I will uphold your right to them.

Think best solution is reestablish monarchy. Keeps number of scavengers down and in one place.

Again, you seem to take umbrage at being referred to as one writing bigoted nonsense but you produce ridiculous statements such as that when the debate is about being part of, or out of, the EU, royalty or not. Even your remark about re-establishing the Monarchy suggests that that institution presumably must at some point have been dissolved. Well, I must have missed that!

As for my choice of the word 'bigoted', you may wish to look it up or ask a grown-up to explain it to you but here is one thesaurus description:

bigoted: adjective -

Prejudiced, biased, partial, one-sided, sectarian, discriminatory; intolerant, narrow-minded, blinkered, illiberal, inflexible, uncompromising, fanatical, dogmatic, opinionated; racist, racialist, sexist, heterosexist, homophobic, anti-gay, chauvinistic, chauvinist, anti-Semitic, jingoistic; jaundiced, warped, twisted, distorted; Frenchparti pris. ANTONYMS tolerant, liberal.

As for 'shameful', the dictionary description fits perfectly with your whole piece in post #7141 particularly but to enter into debate, especially one you deprecated so pompously at the outset, and then take issue with others when you are bereft of any fundamental understanding of the subject matter is....well, shameful!

Tom

 

[oldtom]

By the way, I voted Remain & would do so again.

Your piece seems to me more of a critique of tory and 'tory-lite' government within the UK.

There may be things we can all criticise about the EU but the vast majority of our problems are home-based, created under capitalist dogma so I'm afraid you haven't produced any valid reasons for leaving the EU in my book.

Your input is welcome nonetheless.

Tom

 

[derf]

Okay, I am going to respond to the challenge by OG and others to provide an argument for Brexit. First of all the EU has failed to address issues of inequality and powerlessness amongst many people in the UK. Since the 2nd World War, local communities in the UK have been destroyed. I live in East Yorkshire & worked in Hull for many years, so OG will know what I'm talking about in respect of the East Hull & Holderness Rd communities. The alternatives have largely been impersonal estates on the edge of cities i.e. Bransholme or poorly designed tower blocks. The same goes for most cities & towns in the UK. To compound this, council houses were sold off in the 1980's to support what was the experimental ideology of Thatcherism.

Secondly, there is the failure of materialism to provide many people with meaning in life. This was arguably largely gained from close knit communities, the Church and extended families. So know we have a largely fragmented culture driven by consumerism and status for some & powerlessness and despair for others. For example, witness the continued increase in the prescription of anti-depressant medication. Thirdly, the mistrust of Europe by the generation who lived through the 2nd World War or were born soon afterwards, I appreciate this is a generalisation (sorry Flecc & others) - my evidence is the larger numbers of older people who voted for Brexit.

In my work in the NHS. I see a feeling of hopeless, anger & desperation amongst many of the people I see. Many are receiving benefits & completely at the mercy of what they perceive to be an unfair & uncaring system which punishes them for sickness and ill-health. They also perceive others as having access to the privileges that they are denied. An unseen bureaucracy is making decisions for them & the decisions always seem to favour others (parallels with the EU?). Then there is fear - the analogy is that someone has been invited into my house (not by me). They are taking the best rooms and trashing the rest. There are also many more just outside waiting to come in.

Of all these points, for me the key one is powerlessness - hence "Take Back Control". People like Farage, Trump & La Penne are seen as speaking up for those who have been marginalised. By comparison the EU is seen to entirely ignore their concerns. So how could Brexit be otherwise? Perhaps rather than asking leavers to justify Brexit, perhaps the onus is on remainers to justify how we can support a system which is such an abject failure. After with regards to Trump/Farage "cometh the hour, cometh the man". Who is to say that this isn't true?

By the way, I voted Remain & would do so again.

well thanks for a thoughtful response. my problem is that I arrived at a similar post mortem than you (it being about an experience of powerlessness). but with a difference. it felt a bit like a case of divorce. a (truly noxiously) bad parent (a rank tory government screwing the poor for all its worth so that it can give tax breaks to googles and rich lords who enjoy taking money out of pension funds) and a struggling more or less ok parent (eu that has good policies but flawed processes). and as always the bad parent engages in manipulation, blame, subterfuge and gets the children to hate the struggling parent and reject it). so they loose the good enough care on offer and end up in care (and probably abused). that's what's coming next.

there isn't anything immigrants or the eu have done that compares to a deregulated banking sector (by thatcher) and several neo conservative and conservative governments since. but I suspect im singing to the choir (you having voted remain will know all this). I guess there isn't a good answer for why brexit happened, its a fiasco of manipulation and misdirected rage.

 

[homemoz]

Okay, I am going to respond to the challenge by OG and others to provide an argument for Brexit. First of all the EU has failed to address issues of inequality and powerlessness amongst many people in the UK. Since the 2nd World War, local communities in the UK have been destroyed. I live in East Yorkshire & worked in Hull for many years, so OG will know what I'm talking about in respect of the East Hull & Holderness Rd communities. The alternatives have largely been impersonal estates on the edge of cities i.e. Bransholme or poorly designed tower blocks. The same goes for most cities & towns in the UK. To compound this, council houses were sold off in the 1980's to support what was the experimental ideology of Thatcherism.

Secondly, there is the failure of materialism to provide many people with meaning in life. This was arguably largely gained from close knit communities, the Church and extended families. So know we have a largely fragmented culture driven by consumerism and status for some & powerlessness and despair for others. For example, witness the continued increase in the prescription of anti-depressant medication. Thirdly, the mistrust of Europe by the generation who lived through the 2nd World War or were born soon afterwards, I appreciate this is a generalisation (sorry Flecc & others) - my evidence is the larger numbers of older people who voted for Brexit.

In my work in the NHS. I see a feeling of hopeless, anger & desperation amongst many of the people I see. Many are receiving benefits & completely at the mercy of what they perceive to be an unfair & uncaring system which punishes them for sickness and ill-health. They also perceive others as having access to the privileges that they are denied. An unseen bureaucracy is making decisions for them & the decisions always seem to favour others (parallels with the EU?). Then there is fear - the analogy is that someone has been invited into my house (not by me). They are taking the best rooms and trashing the rest. There are also many more just outside waiting to come in.

Of all these points, for me the key one is powerlessness - hence "Take Back Control". People like Farage, Trump & La Penne are seen as speaking up for those who have been marginalised. By comparison the EU is seen to entirely ignore their concerns. So how could Brexit be otherwise? Perhaps rather than asking leavers to justify Brexit, perhaps the onus is on remainers to justify how we can support a system which is such an abject failure. After with regards to Trump/Farage "cometh the hour, cometh the man". Who is to say that this isn't true?

By the way, I voted Remain & would do so again.

Just by way of clarification. I am one of the fortunate ones. I had an education paid for by the state, decent housing in an area I could choose & a job I enjoy. If my circumstances were different & I needed a sense of control back in my life as well - would I have voted for Brexit even knowing that a lot of the promises were false?

 

[Zlatan]

Tom
A bigot.
A person intolerant to the views of others.

Interpret this post however you wish.

But which part of any of my posts was intolerant ???

For fecks sake Tom just stop.

And your comment to Homer
" your input is welcome" speaks volumes.


You,ve taken ownership . This place is unbelievable....

As if any poster can tell another his input is welcome on an open forum.. ???

 

[oldgroaner]

Okay, I am going to respond to the challenge by OG and others to provide an argument for Brexit. First of all the EU has failed to address issues of inequality and powerlessness amongst many people in the UK. Since the 2nd World War, local communities in the UK have been destroyed. I live in East Yorkshire & worked in Hull for many years, so OG will know what I'm talking about in respect of the East Hull & Holderness Rd communities. The alternatives have largely been impersonal estates on the edge of cities i.e. Bransholme or poorly designed tower blocks. The same goes for most cities & towns in the UK. To compound this, council houses were sold off in the 1980's to support what was the experimental ideology of Thatcherism.

Secondly, there is the failure of materialism to provide many people with meaning in life. This was arguably largely gained from close knit communities, the Church and extended families. So know we have a largely fragmented culture driven by consumerism and status for some & powerlessness and despair for others. For example, witness the continued increase in the prescription of anti-depressant medication. Thirdly, the mistrust of Europe by the generation who lived through the 2nd World War or were born soon afterwards, I appreciate this is a generalisation (sorry Flecc & others) - my evidence is the larger numbers of older people who voted for Brexit.

In my work in the NHS. I see a feeling of hopeless, anger & desperation amongst many of the people I see. Many are receiving benefits & completely at the mercy of what they perceive to be an unfair & uncaring system which punishes them for sickness and ill-health. They also perceive others as having access to the privileges that they are denied. An unseen bureaucracy is making decisions for them & the decisions always seem to favour others (parallels with the EU?). Then there is fear - the analogy is that someone has been invited into my house (not by me). They are taking the best rooms and trashing the rest. There are also many more just outside waiting to come in.

Of all these points, for me the key one is powerlessness - hence "Take Back Control". People like Farage, Trump & La Penne are seen as speaking up for those who have been marginalised. By comparison the EU is seen to entirely ignore their concerns. So how could Brexit be otherwise? Perhaps rather than asking leavers to justify Brexit, perhaps the onus is on remainers to justify how we can support a system which is such an abject failure. After with regards to Trump/Farage "cometh the hour, cometh the man". Who is to say that this isn't true?

By the way, I voted Remain & would do so again.

Actually you haven't responded to the challenge, just highlighted the obvious truth that people have identified their problems as coming from the wrong source, and sought to remedy that by putting themselves entirely into the hands of the very agents of their distress.
Not only is our local government incapable of proving the needed remedies, but lacks any intention to do so.
It is true that the EU has not addressed inequalities, it has never had the power to do so, has it?
Once again because of resistance from our own government.
But thanks for trying to open up the debate.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[homemoz]

Your piece seems to me more of a critique of tory and 'tory-lite' government within the UK.

There may be things we can all criticise about the EU but the vast majority of our problems are home-based, created under capitalist dogma so I'm afraid you haven't produced any valid reasons for leaving the EU in my book.

Your input is welcome nonetheless.

Tom

Actually it's more a critique of materialism and the politics of envy. Not just about the UK but a pattern that is being repeated through much of Europe & the US & therefore not confined to a Tory govt. With regard to Derf's reply. Yes, I can appreciate a lot of your analysis. However, the EU can be said to have been complicit in promoting an image of privilege & distance & in failing to address the distress (shall we say) of some of it's member states. Interestingly (and to put the cat amongst the pigeons) the World Happiness Report for 2016 lists quite a few Scandinavian countries in it's top 10. So maybe one question to ask is what makes these countries different from us & gives us more in common with countries with a growing populist tendency? Is it population (animal studies show that overcrowding leads to aggression), social priorities or something entirely different? Whatever, we think of the EU, unless we do start to try & make sense of the discontentment (and anger) then as a society, my analysis is that we're basically stuffed!

1. Denmark (7.526)
2. Switzerland (7.509)
3. Iceland (7.501)
4. Norway (7.498)
5. Finland (7.413)
6. Canada (7.404)
7. Netherlands (7.339)
8. New Zealand (7.334)
9. Australia (7.313)
10. Sweden (7.291)
    
    
    

 

[Wicky]

"I said he (Hitler) had worked wonders"

What Autobahns that were buit were merely nominal propoganda as funnily enough that other wonder project of Hitler's WW2 impeded further construction. They were pretty much useless as a way of moving miltary transport as road surface wasn't robust enough for tanks which used cheaper railways as means of strategic deployment. esp with subsequent fuel shortages.

Though autobahns were used as auxiliary airfields they were heavily bombed.

 

[homemoz]

Actually you haven't responded to the challenge, just highlighted the obvious truth that people have identified their problems as coming from the wrong source, and sought to remedy that by putting themselves entirely into the hands of the very agents of their distress.
Not only is our local government incapable of proving the needed remedies, but lacks any intention to do so.
It is true that the EU has not addressed inequalities, it has never had the power to do so, has it?
Once again because of resistance from our own government.
But thanks for trying to open up the debate.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

So, if the EU doesn't have the power to address inequality (which wasn't my main argument) then it could be said to be fundamentally useless? It's a lot of money to pay for something which only compounds a already existing problem i.e. The instability caused by free movement of people to existing cultures already fragmented by technological developments & housing policy. In this context Take back Control makes sense. A recognition that we need to get our own house in order before we can engage fully with the wider world.

 

[anotherkiwi]

The EU has been complicit in nothing because it doesn't have the mandate to bring down crony capitalism. You are governed by your national government, the EU does not govern anyone.