Brexit, for once some facts.

[RobF]

As for the despicable nature of racism, fascism and the shocking, brutal murder of a woman

That is entirely irrelevant to the simple point of English being the dominant language in the world.

You are trying to drag all these irrelevancies into it in a bid to construct a facetious argument about me being lots of nasty things.

What I am, or not, is also irrelevant - it has no bearing on the position of English as a language in comparison to others.

It's not hard to grasp, but it is if you are determined not to.

By the way, personal insults are supposed to be frowned on in this forum, although your ignorance and what stems from it doesn't bother me.

 

[oldgroaner]

That is entirely irrelevant to the simple point of English being the dominant language in the world.

You are trying to drag all these irrelevancies into it in a bid to construct a facetious argument about me being lots of nasty things.

What I am, or not, is also irrelevant - it has no bearing on the position of English as a language in comparison to others.

It's not hard to grasp, but it is if you are determined not to.

By the way, personal insults are supposed to be frowned on in this forum, although your ignorance and what stems from it doesn't bother me.

Then set an example and desist!

 

[RobF]

The set an example and desist!

If you think I've been insulting, you need to get out more.

Actually, given your obsessive posting in this thread, I think you need to get out more anyway.

 

[oldgroaner]

If you think I've been insulting, you need to get out more.

Actually, given your obsessive posting in this thread, I think you need to get out more anyway.

Do you really think you haven't been insulting? perhaps taking your own advice would be a good idea, and by the way, I usually travel over 30,000 miles in an average year, so perhaps getting out more might not be practical.

But time spent on checking whether the things you believe in are true is a worthwhile occupation, so perhaps you could "get out less" and try doing that?
And describing my interest in the thread wouldn't come under the heading obsessive if i was on the Brexit side of the fence, would it?

The truth is that like many others, you cling to the notion that because you have chosen to vote for something that you have clearly been misled about,never bothered to check the veracity of the evidence offered to you, and didn't even know that it isn't legally binding on the government to action, is obviously a bad idea, with no plan to make it happen but it must somehow be right anyway because you "will it to be "
And you won't hear anything against it as it has become an act of Faith.
Quite simply it exposes how little care you took before taking a set viewpoint.
To sum up the Brexit position
Didn't know the legal status of the Referendum, or that Cameron did not have the authority to offer to abide by it.
Didn't understand he had negotiated a get out from further integration with the EU
Didn't understand the difficulties of leaving the EU, how much it would cost and if there was even the ghost of a plan.
Didn't realise that Cameron, Boris Gove and all the other clowns would ride off into the sunset to avoid responsibility.
I'm getting bored, it is so obviously a bad idea it's remarkable that people cling to it, even now.
That's why I'm all for Article 50 immediately.
Brexit voters need to have proof so positive that even they can comprehend what is going on in their name.

 

[anotherkiwi]

I accept your point, but I prefer to argue that with some 300 important languages in the world, all of us randomly learning various other languages is pointless. What any individual can achieve is still far short of adequate so of very limited use.

Well thanks a lot for "short of adequate"! That isn't what I am hearing here, more like "your mastery of the subtleties of French is better than mine" or "you learnt Spanish on the internet, I don't believe you!".

Much better that one particular language is learnt by all. Learning and using other languages by the English lessens the need for others to learn English, which I think a retrograde step. Personally I'd like to see the end of Babel with all other languages disappearing over time.
.

I beg to disagree. I have heard businessmen whose mother tongue was not English talking together after work and you really have to wonder how deals get done. Of course their technical English is probably very good but in no way do they speak the language to an acceptable level in all contexts

People often ask me how do you say such and such in English and quite often the reply is there are no words for that in English. Maybe there was once upon a time but you are tending towards a cultural shallowness which is reflected by the weakening, the diluting down of the language.

By not learning another language you are missing out on an awful lot of what makes life so rich and interesting. Back in the day the English used to speak several languages, I think they may have stopped learning after the loss of the Empire.

I love the English language but not what passes for English today. Oh and American is not English. Or maybe I should say not any longer.

 

[anotherkiwi]

That is entirely irrelevant to the simple point of English being the dominant language in the world.

It isn't. It is used in trade. Full stop. That is it, once the deal is done people go back to using another language for day to day life which is often more interesting than just plain old buying and selling.

French is still used in diplomacy. It is the language of the elites. The Chinese having bought up half the vineyards of France or so it seems aren't using English to talk about wine, they are learning French. The French wanting to trade with China already speak English but are learning Chinese, it helps smooth the deal, the client thinks you are taking him seriously...

One day the bubble you are living in will burst and you will notice these subtle details. Or maybe that was a popping sound I heard in June.

 

[flecc]

Well thanks a lot for "short of adequate"! That isn't what I am hearing here, more like "your mastery of the subtleties of French is better than mine" or "you learnt Spanish on the internet, I don't believe you!".


I beg to disagree. I have heard businessmen whose mother tongue was not English talking together after work and you really have to wonder how deals get done. Of course their technical English is probably very good but in no way do they speak the language to an acceptable level in all contexts

People often ask me how do you say such and such in English and quite often the reply is there are no words for that in English. Maybe there was once upon a time but you are tending towards a cultural shallowness which is reflected by the weakening, the diluting down of the language.

By not learning another language you are missing out on an awful lot of what makes life so rich and interesting. Back in the day the English used to speak several languages, I think they may have stopped learning after the loss of the Empire.

I love the English language but not what passes for English today. Oh and American is not English. Or maybe I should say not any longer.

I expected disagreement on a large scale, it's inevitable.

But I'm focussed on the desirable end game of a world in which we all speak the same language, and there are no other languages

Your objections are valid, but are precisely what is slowing progress to one language for our one species.
.

 

[RobF]

And describing my interest in the thread wouldn't come under the heading obsessive if i was on the Brexit side of the fence, would it?

Yes it would, absolutely.

Once again, you are unable to separate one simple point from lots of others.

Hundreds and hundreds of long posts by a single poster in any thread supporting any view is, to me, obsessive.

Others, of course, may think differently.

You might have gathered I don't regard our membership of the EU as that important one way or the other.

Had we voted to stay, I wouldn't have lost any sleep over it, and I certainly wouldn't be bleating for another vote and patronising remain voters by telling them they were misled and don't understand.

What I do regard as important is accepting the result of the referendum and making the best of it.

 

[RobF]

It isn't.

There's a lot about the dominance of English on wiki - usual caution needed - but the thrust of it is summed up by this extract:

"However, when combining native and non-native speakers, English is probably the most commonly spoken language in the world.
"English is spoken by communities on every continent and on oceanic islands in all the major oceans."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language

 

[anotherkiwi]

I expected disagreement on a large scale, it's inevitable.

But I'm focussed on the desirable end game of a world in which we all speak the same language, and there are no other languages

Your objections are valid, but are precisely what is slowing progress to one language for our one species.
.

I think that diversity is what makes the species go forward. Compulsory learning of a second language is the way forward, your solution is a step backwards. I live in an area where children are often tri-lingual, look up what that means:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_advantages_of_bilingualism

EDIT

It is estimated that half of the world is functionally bilingual, and the majority of those bilinguals are 'native speakers' of their two languages.[2] Wölck has pointed out that there are many "native bilingual communities", typically in South America, Africa, and Asia, where "monolingual norms may be unavailable or nonexistent".[3]

 

[anotherkiwi]

There's a lot about the dominance of English on wiki - usual caution needed - but the thrust of it is summed up by this extract:

"However, when combining native and non-native speakers, English is probably the most commonly spoken language in the world.
"English is spoken by communities on every continent and on oceanic islands in all the major oceans."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language

Key word: probably

And that is flawed logic because English isn't the principal language of bilinguals, they only speak it when they need to, when they need to communicate with a person who doesn't speak their primary language. See my other post about the cognitive capacity of polyglots.

EDIT

Some math:

Lets say that 20% of Chinese speakers and 20% of Spanish speakers are speaking English at the same time as all 100% of English speakers. Not a very likely case but there would still be more people speaking Chinese at that same point in time.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Here's a fact for you.

I've just had to tell the small film production company we try to support when we can that we won't be able to use them for any video's over the next 3 months. The collapse in the price of the value of the £ has meant we've lost pretty much all our margin on the nutrition brand we distribute, so we had a choice, put the price up or cut things. We have decided to try to ride out the price increases, but this has meant... cancelling contracts like this video one, and also cancelling the plan to take on a new apprentice.

Direct impact of the result of the referendum, god knows what'll happen in Article 50 is triggered.

 

[RobF]

Here's a fact for you.

I've just had to tell the small film production company we try to support when we can that we won't be able to use them for any video's over the next 3 months. The collapse in the price of the value of the £ has meant we've lost pretty much all our margin on the nutrition brand we distribute, so we had a choice, put the price up or cut things. We have decided to try to ride out the price increases, but this has meant... cancelling contracts like this video one, and also cancelling the plan to take on a new apprentice.

Direct impact of the result of the referendum, god knows what'll happen in Article 50 is triggered.

I agree the Brexit result has caused a significant drop in the value of the pound.

But that may have happened at any time - we've had various devaluations/currency crises in my memory - so the possibility of a big drop is not hypothetical.

What your situation demonstrates is the risk of running a business which is heavily dependent on a single factor - the exchange rate - which you cannot control.

As you know, business is all about risk, so I'm not criticising you, quite the reverse, you should be congratulated for taking the risk in the first place and managing it.

It's often said the country needs more engineers, we also need more entrepreneurs - risk takers.

 

[oldgroaner]

Yes it would, absolutely.

Once again, you are unable to separate one simple point from lots of others.

Hundreds and hundreds of long posts by a single poster in any thread supporting any view is, to me, obsessive.

Others, of course, may think differently.

You might have gathered I don't regard our membership of the EU as that important one way or the other.

Had we voted to stay, I wouldn't have lost any sleep over it, and I certainly wouldn't be bleating for another vote and patronising remain voters by telling them they were misled and don't understand.

What I do regard as important is accepting the result of the referendum and making the best of it.

"You might have gathered I don't regard our membership of the EU as that important one way or the other."

So you voted for something unimportant? and defend it with such vigour?
"Had we voted to stay, I wouldn't have lost any sleep over it, and I certainly wouldn't be bleating for another vote and patronising remain voters by telling them they were misled and don't understand."

I'm not bleating for another vote, had you been as observant as you believe you would note I would like Article 50 to be activated immediately.

And there is nothing patronising about telling leave voters the truth, and that's what really upsets you as you cannot accept the simple fact you fell for a pack of lies, and never checked fact from fiction.
"What I do regard as important is accepting the result of the referendum and making the best of it."
Well I for one accepted the result of the referendum, in the full expectation that it has little chance of achieving more than mere enrichment of the wealthy and poverty for the poor.
Do you imagine that the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove and the other pro Brexit people are pushing it out of a benevolent urge to help the public?
You would have to be a lot worse than merely misinformed to believe that!

 

[RobF]

"You might have gathered I don't regard our membership of the EU as that important one way or the other."

So you voted for something unimportant? and defend it with such vigour?
"Had we voted to stay, I wouldn't have lost any sleep over it, and I certainly wouldn't be bleating for another vote and patronising remain voters by telling them they were misled and don't understand."

I'm not bleating for another vote, had you been as observant as you believe you would note I would like Article 50 to be activated immediately.

And there is nothing patronising about telling leave voters the truth, and that's what really upsets you as you cannot accept the simple fact you fell for a pack of lies, and never checked fact from fiction.
"What I do regard as important is accepting the result of the referendum and making the best of it."
Well I for one accepted the result of the referendum, in the full expectation that it has little chance of achieving more than mere enrichment of the wealthy and poverty for the poor.

As a voter, I had a choice to vote in, out, or to abstain.

The first was never an option, the latter was.

I'm not in favour of compulsory voting, but equally I believe participation is generally the better way to go.

As regards vigorous defence, once again we have a very different grasp of the meaning of words.

My occasional bursts of pro-Brexit posts does not, to me, come close to being vigorous.

Those who have posted regularly in this thread throughout its life are better-suited to that description.

 

[oldgroaner]

"
Nigel Farage is to share a stage with Donald Trump to discuss what the Republican presidential candidate can learn from his Brexit success

• Pair will address Trump rally of 15,000 supporters in Jackson, Mississippi
• Nigel Farage expected to share private advice about how he beat political elite to win EU referendum vote during dinner with Trump
• But outgoing Ukip leader insists he will not be endorsing the Republican

How appropriate!

 

[oldgroaner]

As a voter, I had a choice to vote in, out, or to abstain.

The first was never an option, the latter was.

I'm not in favour of compulsory voting, but equally I believe participation is generally the better way to go.

As regards vigorous defence, once again we have a very different grasp of the meaning of words.

My occasional bursts of pro-Brexit posts does not, to me, come close to being vigorous.

Those who have posted regularly in this thread throughout its life are better-suited to that description.

Vigorous sound good to me!

 

[oldtom]

You might have gathered I don't regard our membership of the EU as that important one way or the other.

Rob, first of all, why do you contribute to a thread, the subject of which you now tell us leaves you ambivalent?

Given that you have chosen to contribute, why did you choose to make a brash statement about the English language in such a way as likely to suggest that because English is spoken in many parts of the world, that must confer British superiority over others?.....how was that relevant to the EU debate or was there some other relevance to the fact that you wished to inform readers that English is commonly spoken in more countries than other tongues?

Why did you choose to refer to the Scottish First Minister as 'that dreadful Scottish woman'? You know her name.

Was there any need to express your opinion of the EU thus? -

'We've voted to leave a short-lived, desperately flawed, crappy little treaty organisation which has an overblown sense of its own importance.'

27 other sovereign nation states seem to disagree with the notion of leaving because of your summary of an imperfect organisation. Perhaps you are an expert?

Why did you remark, 'By the way, personal insults are supposed to be frowned on in this forum, although your ignorance and what stems from it doesn't bother me.'?

There is a certain irony there that amuses me but I can't actually remember insulting you. Perhaps you could point it out to me for future reference? For what it's worth, I think you've made a pretty comprehensive job of insulting yourself by disseminating your views and prejudices to all readers of the forum.

Someone once said, 'By their friends ye shall know them.' You and certain undesirable elements in British society happily disregard the murder of Jo Cox by describing it as an irrelevance. Happily, I can state that you could never be any friend of mine.

Tom

 

[RobF]

Rob, first of all, why do you contribute to a thread, the subject of which you now tell us leaves you ambivalent?

Given that you have chosen to contribute, why did you choose to make a brash statement about the English language in such a way as likely to suggest that because English is spoken in many parts of the world, that must confer British superiority over others?.....how was that relevant to the EU debate or was there some other relevance to the fact that you wished to inform readers that English is commonly spoken in more countries than other tongues?

Why did you choose to refer to the Scottish First Minister as 'that dreadful Scottish woman'? You know her name.

Was there any need to express your opinion of the EU thus? -

'We've voted to leave a short-lived, desperately flawed, crappy little treaty organisation which has an overblown sense of its own importance.'

27 other sovereign nation states seem to disagree with the notion of leaving because of your summary of an imperfect organisation. Perhaps you are an expert?

Why did you remark, 'By the way, personal insults are supposed to be frowned on in this forum, although your ignorance and what stems from it doesn't bother me.'?

There is a certain irony there that amuses me but I can't actually remember insulting you. Perhaps you could point it out to me for future reference? For what it's worth, I think you've made a pretty comprehensive job of insulting yourself by disseminating your views and prejudices to all readers of the forum.

Someone once said, 'By their friends ye shall know them.' You and certain undesirable elements in British society happily disregard the murder of Jo Cox by describing it as an irrelevance. Happily, I can state that you could never be any friend of mine.

Tom

Ah, selective quoting, come on Tom, I know you are desperate to twist everything, but you can do better than that.

I described the murder of Jo Cox as irrelevant to the simple point of English being a dominant world language.

You had better tell us all how the position of English in a notional league table of languages is relevant to the murder.

You've insulted me by calling me a racist bigot, xenophobe, etc.

You have made any number of baseless assertions plucked from your fevered imagination.

You are also typical of the remainers - no one else is allowed to have an opinion, you are all stupid, etc, etc.

Can you not grasp that you are doing your (already failed and rejected) cause more harm than good?

Oh, and thanks for the advice about contributing, but I tell you what, you look after your posts and I will look after mine.

 

[flecc]

I think that diversity is what makes the species go forward. Compulsory learning of a second language is the way forward, your solution is a step backwards.

I disgree that it's step backwards, the advantages you mention are artificially introduced by the unnecessary impedance of different languages and the challenge of the reduced understanding that results. If all were only using one common language there would be an increased potential for creativity from the constructs that multiple brains in a more perfect common understanding can envisage.
.