Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldtom]

Sorry Tom but you are also ignorant of the facts,the 2 year period is only after we trigger Article 50,we can take 10 years negotiating our exit deal/strategy and there is nothing the EU can do about it,that's why Junckers is so aggressive about it.

Ignorant Dave? I know perfectly well from TV, press, radio and the internet that the previously untested procedure under Article 50 requires the exiting state to formally initiate the process when they wish to leave. After that point, there is a two-year provision contained as described in the following excerpts:

Article 50, paragraph 2 states:
“2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention.
In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.”

Article 50, paragraph 3 goes on to state:

That if within two years of a nation giving notice of its intention to withdraw from the EU, a negotiated agreement is not reached, then the Lisbon Treaty simply stops applying to that nation.

Article 50, paragraph 3 states:

“3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.”

Your claim that we may take 10 years and there is nothing the EU can do is what I'd expect from Farage or Britain First. The reality of that situation may prove to be somewhat different, reading Article 50.

My point was pretty clear; if we're out, we're out, so let's get on with it and stop this shilly-shallying. Tell the EU formally we intend to leave and commence negotiations which we should aim to conclude in two years.

Who can possibly be satisfied if we continue to play a role in the EU while sitting on the result of a requested referendum which requires the government to take the necessary steps? All the reasons which caused people to vote against remaining will still be there - nothing will change until exit negotiations commence and probably for some time after that.

My personal view is that democracy and the will of the people should be respected unless there are strong technical or legal reasons for not so doing. I have read that there may actually be such grounds but I'm sure the Attorney General will provide his view to the government, should there be a need.

Tom

 

[derf]

My understanding is that Robert Halfon, the skinhead who represents Harlow, is deputy party leader so by extension, I'd say he's the best-placed to be described as deputy PM.

Tom

to me, the spirit and style of this post so captures my experience of brexit. I didn't know who the deputy prime minister was.id probably have been less surprised if it was the manager of a local bordello.

 

[Kudoscycles]

If 20 million voted to leave and 10 million wanted to stay,then I would agree that we have a clear mandate. But the difference was too tight,especially I know many who voted leave didn't really understand the implications....ironically many have learnt more about leaving since the vote than they ever understood during the run up.
The problem is the remain lobby thought they would easily win,the leave lobby thought they would definitely lose,so neither had a plan if we voted to leave. It will take years to go through all laws and directives that bind us to the EU and visa-versa. Our biggest bargaining power is that the EU want us out quickly,for there may be a contagion effect by other member states,so the longer we procrastinate,the more likely we will get a good exit deal but the moment we trigger Article 50 our bargaining power is over.
I still think it very unlikely we will leave, I think May will want to fight a General Election before triggering Article 50 with a new manifesto to give the country another chance to vote but if we are to leave it should be on terms attractive to us.
KudosDave

 

[oldgroaner]

If 20 million voted to leave and 10 million wanted to stay,then I would agree that we have a clear mandate. But the difference was too tight,especially I know many who voted leave didn't really understand the implications....ironically many have learnt more about leaving since the vote than they ever understood during the run up.
The problem is the remain lobby thought they would easily win,the leave lobby thought they would definitely lose,so neither had a plan if we voted to leave. It will take years to go through all laws and directives that bind us to the EU and visa-versa. Our biggest bargaining power is that the EU want us out quickly,for there may be a contagion effect by other member states,so the longer we procrastinate,the more likely we will get a good exit deal but the moment we trigger Article 50 our bargaining power is over.
I still think it very unlikely we will leave, I think May will want to fight a General Election before triggering Article 50 with a new manifesto to give the country another chance to vote but if we are to leave it should be on terms attractive to us.
KudosDave

The problem is of course that terms that are attractive to the government will be anathema to the leave camp voters.
Not only that we will get the sort of terms you would get when being mugged with a gun.
And if we turn them down, thrown out after two years with nothing whatever to console the voters with.
Unless the EU decided to be "merciful" and make us suffer even longer.
What a triumph for our so called gesture of defiance.
Finally as the icing on the cake we can't negotiate any new trade deals till we have left the EU and the deal is signed and approved by the EU
Verily England that was won't to conquer others
Hath made a conquest of itself.


Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[oldgroaner]

I had to look up who the Deputy PM is. I can name most politicians and their role but didn't know who held this office.

Now I know, I feel a crushing sense of disappointment.

Too right he leaves one with the same impression a brick does thirty seconds after being tossed into a pond.

 

[oldgroaner]

optimism of the Cowardly Traitor to his cause, Boris

Among a list of five points of his own, Mr Johnson said it was "overwhelmingly in the economic interests of the other EU countries to do a free-trade deal, with zero tariffs and quotas, while we extricate ourselves from the EU law-making system".
Lets see now the other 27 countries will bow down before our financial and industrial might?
And would that be the law system where every law implemented had been done with "our" explicit consent and sometimes at our request?
So that you can abuse the public with repressive laws of your own?

I recommend sex and travel Boris, preferably to somewhere on the moon.
PS there was a text from call me Dave it reads "I told you just to blow the bloody doors off.... Dick head."

 

[derf]

Ignorant Dave? I know perfectly well from TV, press, radio and the internet that the previously untested procedure under Article 50 requires the exiting state to formally initiate the process when they wish to leave. After that point, there is a two-year provision contained as described in the following excerpts:

Article 50, paragraph 2 states:
“2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention.
In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.”

Article 50, paragraph 3 goes on to state:

That if within two years of a nation giving notice of its intention to withdraw from the EU, a negotiated agreement is not reached, then the Lisbon Treaty simply stops applying to that nation.

Article 50, paragraph 3 states:

“3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.”

Your claim that we may take 10 years and there is nothing the EU can do is what I'd expect from Farage or Britain First. The reality of that situation may prove to be somewhat different, reading Article 50.

My point was pretty clear; if we're out, we're out, so let's get on with it and stop this shilly-shallying. Tell the EU formally we intend to leave and commence negotiations which we should aim to conclude in two years.

Who can possibly be satisfied if we continue to play a role in the EU while sitting on the result of a requested referendum which requires the government to take the necessary steps? All the reasons which caused people to vote against remaining will still be there - nothing will change until exit negotiations commence and probably for some time after that.

My personal view is that democracy and the will of the people should be respected unless there are strong technical or legal reasons for not so doing. I have read that there may actually be such grounds but I'm sure the Attorney General will provide his view to the government, should there be a need.

Tom

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-legal-challenge-launched-businesses-move-to-block-eu-exit-without-act-of-parliament-a7118186.html
so brexit wont happen (fat chance of our corrupt MP's voting for it, who'd ever think they'd save us). It's a funny thing, courtesy of all this catharsis i was finally working through the emotional impasse of it all, thinking how its not really bad at all (i own some cheap properties, in a falling property market expensive properties loose more value and trading up is good, whereas trading down isnt), how it may change the culture of the country from an obsessive, vapid, materialist, celebrity obsessed intelectual vacuum into something a little more reflective.

 

[Kudoscycles]

I wonder if the little old Lady in her nursing home in Frinton on Sea,who postal voted for cuddly Boris and Joe 90,could foresee that she was causing the biggest political treachery since Brutus betrayed Caesar.
And how are they going to get rid of Corbyn,borrow one of Putin's Plutonium pills?
In the future it will be a Hollywood blockbuster,who will play the lead characters?
KudosDave

 

[trex]

FWIW the Economist Intelligence Unit predicts a recession with the economy shrinking 1% next year (GDP will be 4% lower, unemployment sharply up, budget deficit back up to 5.5%) and OECD says Brexit will be a bigger hit to the economy than 2008 or any other post world war 2 crisis. It would take a positively thick, psychopathic politician (and Boris has left the room), or a maniac (Farage anyone?) to trigger article 50 when all of that hits the fan and public consciousness.

does it feel better or worse since we voted to leave?
you can listen to Hatti @ woosh on BBC Essex this morning commenting on how businesses are affected by brexit.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03y988p#play?t=1h08m

 

[flecc]

And how are they going to get rid of Corbyn,borrow one of Putin's Plutonium pills?

It was actually Polonium 210, assuming Comrade Vladimir Vladimirovich did poison Alexander Litvinenko.

And the tale we were all fed about that incident was another pack of political lies, but that's another story.

Suffice it to say that as a licenced user, I used to buy my polonium 210 from the USA and it arrived via normal USPS surface post with only a radiation warning tag on the package.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

Perhaps a poem to lighten the mood?
Call me Dave is crying I know why he's blue
Naughty Boris botched the game at play
Govey promptly fouled him, made him run away
Now they'll be led by dreadful Mrs May

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[oldgroaner]

I wonder if the little old Lady in her nursing home in Frinton on Sea,who postal voted for cuddly Boris and Joe 90,could foresee that she was causing the biggest political treachery since Brutus betrayed Caesar.
And how are they going to get rid of Corbyn,borrow one of Putin's Plutonium pills?
In the future it will be a Hollywood blockbuster,who will play the lead characters?
KudosDave

Theme tune and words by Tom Lehrer along the lines of
"We will all go together when we go?"

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[oldgroaner]

I wonder if the little old Lady in her nursing home in Frinton on Sea,who postal voted for cuddly Boris and Joe 90,could foresee that she was causing the biggest political treachery since Brutus betrayed Caesar.
And how are they going to get rid of Corbyn,borrow one of Putin's Plutonium pills?
In the future it will be a Hollywood blockbuster,who will play the lead characters?
KudosDave

That can't get rid of Corbyn there's no one else that can stand that much flak, which is why when Cameron shouted "for the sake of the country go man!"
He was pointing in the direction of downing Street.

does it feel better or worse since we voted to leave?
you can listen to Hatti @ woosh on BBC Essex this morning commenting on how businesses are affected by brexit.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03y988p#play?t=1h08m

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[derf]

does it feel better or worse since we voted to leave?
you can listen to Hatti @ woosh on BBC Essex this morning commenting on how businesses are affected by brexit.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03y988p#play?t=1h08m

i'm still trying to work that out, saw thi sitem in teh news
http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2016/07/04/foreign/pakistani-man-jailed-for-shouting-allahu-akbar-on-emirates-flight/
and thought there's an analogy for brexit - some (financial) turbulence waking up the deranged among us, who momentarilly became unsettled and made all of us think the plane was about to crash. hopefully once the turbulence pass they will go back to sleep.

 

[oldgroaner]

"
Nigel Farage has resigned as the leader of Ukip just two weeks after Britons voted to leave the European Union, adding that he “couldn’t possibly achieve more”.

At a speech in London, Mr Farage, who was elected as an MEP for the party in 1999, said he had never wanted to be a career politician and was standing down. He has had two stints as leader of the Eurosceptic party since 2006.

“I now feel that I’ve done my bit, that I couldn’t possibly achieve more,” the 52-year-old added.

“I won’t be changing my mind again, I assure you”.

“I have decided to stand aside as leader of Ukip. The victory for the Leave side in the referendum means that my political ambition has been achieved. I came into this business because I wanted us to a self-governing nation, not to become a career politician.

Recorded from his Dacha in Russia one presumes?
And please do us all a favour and Take Boris and Gove back to Russia with you
Yet another rat leaves the sinking ship or are they Lemmings?

 

[oldgroaner]

The stayers generally gave attitude its the leavers who ha e been manipulated and fed lies, fact is although this is the case upto a point but without doubt the temainers have been lied to, manipulated with propogabda to a much larger extent.The difference being many remainers don't realise .
The EU represents ( even with us in) just 10% of world population. In market terms that 10% buy 18% of world produce. Thirty years ago that 18% wad 38%. Yes ,eu market is growing, but compared with global market increase its barely changed.
We can manage ,infact prosper, outside eu. The stay campaign should not have lied over this. IMO it has been their downfall.
Likewise,if we stay and maintain free movement of EU citizens we will not be over run by hordes of Albanianns or Romanians.
BOTH campaigns have treated electorate terribly. Unfortunately the. Stayers campaign of lies, deceit, exagerration continues.
Kudos Dave and KTM have brought some sense onto here from stay side but I do think even these two are victims of our governments scare tactics.

AS usual Flud you are wrong, obviously you havent been reading tha papers have you with regard to propaganda on the Brexit side, and
We were never in danger of being overrun by Albanians and Romanians
"
EU enlargement: Transitional provisions
As new countries join the EU, new EU citizens are created. Provisions phasing in free movement rights were initially introduced in response to fears of mass immigration to other Member States, following the accession of Greece (1981) and Portugal and Spain (1986) (Maas 2007). Transitional provisions now appear a feature of accession treaties, at least for some states. They were implemented as regards eight of the ten Member States that joined the EU in 2004 (Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia or Slovenia – the so-called ‘A8 countries’; but not Cyprus and Malta); in 2007 (Bulgaria and Romania – ‘A2 countries’); and for the 2013 accession of Croatia."

So that claim yours for us being overrun by people from these states is just another example of the lies you seem unable to resist.
And prosper outside the EU? like we didn't before? and there's another flaw in your argument.
We can't even prepare for the event by forming new trading agreements till the leave deal is finally settled and we are out.
Imagine that, out on the street with nowhere to go and nothing to help us thrive.
You're going to get what you want, but will it be? not a hope in hell.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Just wonder what OG is going to do when tho debacle is over, but the way stayers are performing could drag on for years..
Gove days he,ll trigger art 50 in 2017 IF he,s priminister ...so no chance. .
On the ignoring referendum, yes its happened before. France and Holland both ignored electorate over issues that were related and within eu. Ignoring this one ( yes , they could) is a precedent. House has to vote wether to vote on it or not ??? If we had a house..well its quite empty..
Kudos Dave and KTM have made good sensible contribution to stayers arguments but think even their opinions are formed on government manipulation.
We,ve all accepted leave side lied, stayers seem to think they have a. monopoly on valid economic and political points. Well I,m afraid you have not. Government had, and is still, sending out propoganda for leavers to find..The way public has been and still is by stayers is appalling.
At end of day eu represents 10% of world population, yes that accounts for 18% of world trade. Thirty years ago eu accounted for 38%..To insist we cant cope outside eu is ridiculous. Had government been more honest I do think result would have gone other way. But counter to that ,if we stay, and freedom of movement is maintained we wont be overrun by hordes of migrants.
Finacially , I,m with Peter Hargreaves ( not flecc or OG). UK will prosper outside eu but do we want that politically.??


Sorry OG much as I mentioned you in my post, afraid I,ve stopped reading your posts. Its pointless. You accept nothing, counter every single argument and don't actually read my posts. You have been brainwashed by stayers arguments.

 

[BrendanJ]

Flud
I agree with you, this post has stopped being interesting, just repetitive from the hard core remainers that will accept nothing, so for that reason I will now bow out of the discussion
As a final bye bye I leave you with following comment from the Daily Mail
It is ostensible talking about T May, but has some interesting points to be made about the Remainers which I hope you will read, not that I can possible expect any agreement here

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3672924/DAILY-MAIL-COMMENT-Brexit-Theresa-means-it.html

 

[flecc]

UK will prosper outside eu but do we want that politically.??

The way things are drifting politically here in the UK, I don't think we are going to find out whether we'd survive well outside. Michael Gove seems to me to most represent leavers desires, but he's obviously being ganged up against now. With Theresa May as favourite for PM and her being a onetime declared remainer, I think an EU accommodation of some sort could be on the cards.
.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Brendan
Its a good article,the brainwashed on here will dismiss it.
We,ve tried to offer reasonable views between us but stony ground...
I,m with you. Definitely my last post. Take care.