Bosch takes the L on right to repair for ebikes
- Thread starter soundwave
- Start date
Plenty of people get stuck between a rock and a hard place in that if they want an ebike then:
> going the kit route is cheap but requires a level of knowledge to fit and to keep going if problems develop, but the knowledge is 'out there' along with spare parts etc. or if purchased from someone like Woosh bikes who give strong customer support.
A lot of folks though either can be bothered with all that stuff or just don't have the skills or aptitude for kits and so -
>end up buying a proprietory brand like Bosch and are then at the mercy of dealerships if a problem develops or you want to add lights, charging or even replace the battery.
So thank goodness for this forum for those who want to learn.
> going the kit route is cheap but requires a level of knowledge to fit and to keep going if problems develop, but the knowledge is 'out there' along with spare parts etc. or if purchased from someone like Woosh bikes who give strong customer support.
A lot of folks though either can be bothered with all that stuff or just don't have the skills or aptitude for kits and so -
>end up buying a proprietory brand like Bosch and are then at the mercy of dealerships if a problem develops or you want to add lights, charging or even replace the battery.
So thank goodness for this forum for those who want to learn.
Your reply reminds me of a philosophical discussion in 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance'. The Author (Pirsig) repairs his own Harley whereas his friend John has no interest in the workings of his BMW R60. (Different personality types?)
Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Some people want to do this maintenance, or repair by themselves, and thats fine. It does need a level of knowledge most either dont have, or cant be bothered with, and thats fine also.
But if everyone did it themselves, bicycle repair shops would close, bicycle shops would close, and we've seen the latter with many people buying online has already caused many to go out of business.
Plus the problem is if people buy on line and something goes wrong, and they dont have the needed skills, they need to take it to somewhere that has the skill, knowledge and tools to make the repairs.
However, if X many have been doing their own, and repair shops are less and less available, they're stuck with a chunk of plastic/metal and with pretty much no way to fix it. A vicious circle in effect.
So I would say, buying online, and having the knowledge to fix it is bad for the economy.Obviously not everyone has time, nor patience, nor the ability to fix it themselves, and to be honest there I used to see plenty coming in with needing what would be simple jobs like fixing a puncture don't because they have neither the time nor inclination to do it themselves. And pretty much a bicycle store will have a large portion of their income from doing repairs .
So we must always have bike shops.
But if everyone did it themselves, bicycle repair shops would close, bicycle shops would close, and we've seen the latter with many people buying online has already caused many to go out of business.
Plus the problem is if people buy on line and something goes wrong, and they dont have the needed skills, they need to take it to somewhere that has the skill, knowledge and tools to make the repairs.
However, if X many have been doing their own, and repair shops are less and less available, they're stuck with a chunk of plastic/metal and with pretty much no way to fix it. A vicious circle in effect.
So I would say, buying online, and having the knowledge to fix it is bad for the economy.Obviously not everyone has time, nor patience, nor the ability to fix it themselves, and to be honest there I used to see plenty coming in with needing what would be simple jobs like fixing a puncture don't because they have neither the time nor inclination to do it themselves. And pretty much a bicycle store will have a large portion of their income from doing repairs .
So we must always have bike shops.
Bosch is a serious disappointment. First, when the come out with new motors or batteries, they are not reversed engineered. So you cannot use a newer, larger battery on an older model, nor can you install a newer motor on an older frame. Next, even the dealers have no say on repairs or guarantees. If you tell the dealer their is a problem with the motor, be it noise or loss of power, they will only hook it up to a computer, if the computer does not see an error, they will do nothing.
I will do everything in my power to not get a Bosch on my next Ebike
I will do everything in my power to not get a Bosch on my next Ebike
I simply don't agree that bike shops will close, as not everyone will be able to repair them, because even when I was a kid (a long time ago!), bike shops that did a good job for a fair price, always had a good business.
If I may change your quote slightly, "Poor quality, and shady bike shops will close!", as have any bad dealers of anything!! Bad service, unfair pricing has got them all in the end.....
I think we all agree that e-bikes need a lot more specialist knowledge, and are closer to not being fixed by the general public that "normal" bikes might be.....So good e-bike shops will always have (good) customers.
A further point in this direction is the way Bosch and some other companies treat their customers, ones who have experienced problems with Bosch terms of business, prices for repairs, lack of good repairers for Bosch in some areas.
Here in Germany, "the shine has gone off" Chinese made e-bikes with the Bosch name, thankfully!
regards
Andy
Very well put!
And an important guidance for any newcomers researching for an e- bike on Pedelec.
The truth will out!
regards
Andy
Which reminds me, I must repair my 15 year old washing machine yet again today - sure, it's good for the economy if I simply buy a new one, or attempt to get it repaired by a professional (they've incorrectly said it would be cheaper to just buy a new one in the past, and I repaired it inexpensively myself), but it'd be bad for my wallet in the short term, and bad for the environment in the long term.
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Brilliant and SO TRUE! This should be required reading for all newcomers to the e-bike scene!
Many thanks for posting.
regards
Andy
my bike had the bosch performance motor and i replaced it this year with a new cx motor and fitted a new kiox display so you can upgrade some bikes if the motor will fit but a gen 3-4 motor wont fit my frame.
as for batts you can get a 3rd party 745w frame batt but there expensive and only work with some motors.
High-quality replacement batteries from E-Bike Vision
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No obviously not all, but in Glasgow we have lost a number of very good shops over the last 10 years, and in one area near to where i live we had 3, two of which were bike shops for nearly 50 years, including one where i knew the family and used to hang about in my younger days. They closed and put it down to online sales.
Many of the repairs coming in were bikes people had bought from halfords and online.
I also disagree with you saying or calling shops shady. Its a bit of a catch all phrase, that doesn't really signify the truth of how online has damaged the local economy.
Many high streets have shut down, dozens of different shops, selling al sorts have shut their doors, because they could not compete with cheaper online pricing. So to say the reason some bike shop have shut is down to them being dodgy, is a bit misleading to say the very least.
Im an ex butcher. I could make the analogy that supermarkets have caused small retail butchers shops to shut down. In my area, where once there was 9 shops doing a roaring trade, there are now 2.
It would be a bit crazy to suggest those shops, many of them over a hundred years in trade, were shutting, because they were a 'bit dodgy'' or the produce they sold not up to the mark.
The same rational applies to bike shops. If they arent selling the things they make the greatest profit on, bikes and components, then they will slowly lose money and be forced to shut. This is exactly what has happened, and to ask those who remain open what they think has caused such a great downturn in sales, to a man they will say online purchases.
Only very specialized shops catering just to maintenance will remain, and that is something i have witnessed.
Buying imports is not good for the economy and if you are going to import a lower value item is obviously better than a higher price item. The UK has a huge trading deficit which has caused huge borrowing and more of sterling to be owned abroad which has meant industries are now foreign owned as they are bought with that sterling. If you look at the the NIIP rating (net international investment position) you will see the UK is in a very bad way. We have staggering debts and the UK will face much greater poverty for decades ahead. We haven't even started to pay off the huge debts caused mainly by EU membership which I think was something like £1.8 Trillion and then we added all the pandemic costs on top.
In some ways the UK has a good cycling sector. Halfords take 25p approx in every £ spent on cycling in the UK and this could equate to as much as 40% of all bikes sold but I suspect this is skewed more towards childrens bikes and mountain bikes but still its significantly positive and Halfords employ a huge amount of people.
Most independent bike shops I find sell mostly foreign brands and at significantly higher prices than Halfords for similar bikes coming from the same Asian factories. So as well as the money going to the Asian factories a significant chunk of money is going to the importers in Germany, US, Italy etc.
So supporting most independent bike shops with regard maintenance and repair is good but certainly buying new bikes from most of them isn't.
As for Bosch mid-drive motors its premium product with premium performance, premium pricing and premium repair costs its like most German cars which to some are amazing and others are unreliable junk with huge repair bills.
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In some ways the UK has a good cycling sector. Halfords take 25p approx in every £ spent on cycling in the UK and this could equate to as much as 40% of all bikes sold but I suspect this is skewed more towards childrens bikes and mountain bikes but still its significantly positive and Halfords employ a huge amount of people.
Most independent bike shops I find sell mostly foreign brands and at significantly higher prices than Halfords for similar bikes coming from the same Asian factories. So as well as the money going to the Asian factories a significant chunk of money is going to the importers in Germany, US, Italy etc.
So supporting most independent bike shops with regard maintenance and repair is good but certainly buying new bikes from most of them isn't.
As for Bosch mid-drive motors its premium product with premium performance, premium pricing and premium repair costs its like most German cars which to some are amazing and others are unreliable junk with huge repair bills.
Manufacturer Ratings - Car Reliability Index | Reliability Index | How reliable is your car?
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I agree with most of your comments, but NOT selling online in today's modern market place, is always going to cost a business money. How much is the next unanswered question?
Look at how over the last 20 years or so, just how many huge market names have "gone to the wall" because they refused (guessing only) to have an online business as well! Expensive shops in expensive districts.....
Here in Germany, most successful shops, have also an online department, have done for some years.
It is generally cheaper to run, so prices can be held down more easily (or more profit made!), and keeps the "name" in front of the customer, on and offline.....
Chinese imports direct to the customer here in Europe and the UK, are definitely simpler, cheaper, therefore easy to maintain and repair even after the warranty period.
But having them made like Bosch does, with CANBus, not supplying parts to non registered persons and businesses, expensive repair costs even after warranty, is a way that I personally never support.
Therefore I will never buy either a Bosch product, nor will I buy any other middle motor e-bikes, simply due to the prices and the well known "single point of failure" with such e-bikes, that many users eventually experience first hand!
Furthermore, buying Bosch will even more negatively affect the British national debt.
But having more bikes around, will tend to help people with their physical health and reduce the fumes of most vehicles still using Petrol and diesel, which are both good things!
Plus even electric cars, due to how the electricity is made, tend to have a carbon foot print, especially with regard to the manufacturing processes, so an e-bike, with its generally minimum carbon footprint, is a good way to go for many
regards and have a great weekend.
Andy
While i agree with some of what you say, not everything can be cobbled back to function with 3 zip ties, a pair of pliers and a hammer. And that is something that effects many consumer goods. I take most here would struggle to fix their iphone, or 65" led tv should it stop functioning, or the car even.
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What you say Andybike is true. However we have arrived at a place where lots of things are not repairable - period. Be this by self or by 'expert', there is a black box approach that means things just have to be discarded.
Here's an example.
Since 2012 I have had solar panels. Last year the inverter stopped working. Despite being an electrician myself, I called in the installing electrician. Basically it was not registering mains voltage (even though it was there) which is necessary to allow the unit to connect to the grid. So the panels were not allowed to put their voltage into the system.
After some conflab with the manufacturer, it transpired that this was a fault they knew about in the mains sensing logic board, and that 'it happens'. This board is not replaceable so a new (different make) of inverter had to be purchased and installed.
The old one which was working appart from one front end detection module, was discarded. A big lump of plastic, steel, copper, silver etc going to God knows where with most of it being 'uneconomical' to reclaim.
Surely, with some more thought or compulsion, this could be designed to have at least replacable modules.
Here's an example.
Since 2012 I have had solar panels. Last year the inverter stopped working. Despite being an electrician myself, I called in the installing electrician. Basically it was not registering mains voltage (even though it was there) which is necessary to allow the unit to connect to the grid. So the panels were not allowed to put their voltage into the system.
After some conflab with the manufacturer, it transpired that this was a fault they knew about in the mains sensing logic board, and that 'it happens'. This board is not replaceable so a new (different make) of inverter had to be purchased and installed.
The old one which was working appart from one front end detection module, was discarded. A big lump of plastic, steel, copper, silver etc going to God knows where with most of it being 'uneconomical' to reclaim.
Surely, with some more thought or compulsion, this could be designed to have at least replacable modules.
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