BMW to enter electric scooter market

morphix

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Oct 24, 2010
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Remember a couple of years ago BMW launched a 20" electric bike on the MINI brand which was sold exclusively through it's BMW dealerships?

Well now it seems BMW has decided to move into electric scooters, check out this beast:



At 10,000 euros (£8.5k), not cheap!

Claimed to be capable of max speed of 74mph (more like a motorbike than a scooter!), and 62 miles range on a 3 hr battery charge. Impressive performance if true.

BMW scooter goes into production | ebikeee.com
 

geezee74

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Jun 1, 2011
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I want one

I really like it. However, I have just come across this. I imagine that many of you have seen it but it is new to me. Probably the nearest I will come to owing a R8.image.jpg
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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BMW were into scooters a short while ago with the unique C1 which didn't need riders to wear helmets in most markets. It was a 125 cc and not very popular so they withdrew it:

 
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jackhandy

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I really like it. However, I have just come across this. I imagine that many of you have seen it but it is new to me. Probably the nearest I will come to owing a R8.View attachment 5090
That is truly 'orrible - IMHO, of course

Prototype engineer " Where's the saddle?"

Designer "Oh **, I forgot the saddle - hang on a mo..... There, that'll do".
 

geezee74

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Jun 1, 2011
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The seat is there, see photo. It will probably cost the same as a decent car thoughimage.jpg
 

Electrifying Cycles

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Jun 4, 2011
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Looks nice but, I wonder what the battery replacement cost is. For me that is why I do not think electric cars are viable. While electric bike batteries can be expensive it is nothing like the cost of circa 20k for some electric cars. If we could bring quality battery costs down it would drive electric bike market, say £250 for a Bosch battery would be great.
 

Sacko

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Aug 23, 2011
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The electric cars they are releasing this year look the part too.
 

morphix

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Looks nice but, I wonder what the battery replacement cost is. For me that is why I do not think electric cars are viable. While electric bike batteries can be expensive it is nothing like the cost of circa 20k for some electric cars. If we could bring quality battery costs down it would drive electric bike market, say £250 for a Bosch battery would be great.
Definitely so, I think perhaps the battery technology is progressing very slowly and even lagging a bit.. why is that?

Perhaps a lack of willingness to fund R&D by big corps who don't see it as a viable market to justify the R&D costs, or perhaps just due to practical technological limitations which requires more academic research and a completely new direction for battery chemistry?

Or perhaps they're all busy working on new technologies and something will be released in the next year or two that's cheap and small? Another issue is the environmental side eh? Let's say they do produce a new battery technology which is very small, cheap to manufacturer, but has a shorter life...and let's say e-bikes and electric cars become common place in the future..what to do with all those dead batteries?
 

flecc

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Perhaps a lack of willingness to fund R&D by big corps who don't see it as a viable market to justify the R&D costs, or perhaps just due to practical technological limitations which requires more academic research and a completely new direction for battery chemistry?
Large sums and effort have been put into battery research for decades now, but due entirely to the practical limitations of what is physically and chemically possible, with little gain. Two facts tell the whole story. First is that early in the life of the motor vehicle, electric dominated and completely outclassed steam or internal combustion. But i.c. rapidly developed but batteries couldn't so i.c. took over. Second is that after all the developments we know of, the oldest of them all, lead-acid, is still dominant in the largest world market for high discharge batteries, starting vehicles.

So for a new technology to take over that largest market, shockingly we have made zero progress is nearly 200 years. Although in almost all fields it's successful, research cannot answer every need. Sometimes the physics of our part of the universe defeat us.
 

morphix

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Oct 24, 2010
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Large sums and effort have been put into battery research for decades now, but due entirely to the practical limitations of what is physically and chemically possible, with little gain. Two facts tell the whole story. First is that early in the life of the motor vehicle, electric dominated and completely outclassed steam or internal combustion. But i.c. rapidly developed but batteries couldn't so i.c. took over. Second is that after all the developments we know of, the oldest of them all, lead-acid, is still dominant in the largest world market for high discharge batteries, starting vehicles.

So for a new technology to take over that largest market, shockingly we have made zero progress is nearly 200 years. Although in almost all fields it's successful, research cannot answer every need. Sometimes the physics of our part of the universe defeat us.
Interesting explanation flecc and that puts it into a proper industrial and economic context.

I guess with the challenges ahead of Co2 reduction targets and more sustainable transport, the academics at the leading universities will be looking at and working on renewable energy sources and experimenting with new kinds of battery technologies. That will probably cross over into manufacturing.. increasingly we're seeing projects that turn into businesses run by Uni's or by individuals connected with Uni's.. I believe in China, that's the normal way? Most things start off as state-funded academic projects, and then go into part/fully state-funded factories.

Actually I'm sure I remember a news article by BBC concerning a UK university who claimed they had developed a new variant type of Lithium battery chemistry which provided a rapid charge cycle in under 30 mins, smaller, lighter package etc..but it was still in the development/testing phase and haven't heard anything more since.. I guess there's still the challenge of how to make even batteries sustainable though, how to design them so the chemicals don't harm the environment and so they can be recycled.

Perhaps one of these uni's will license their technology or sell it outright to some big manufacturer like Panasonic or Toshiba, or maybe some Chinese firm!
 
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
53,221
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I guess with the challenges ahead of Co2 reduction targets and more sustainable transport, the academics at the leading universities will be looking at and working on renewable energy sources and experimenting with new kinds of battery technologies. That will probably cross over into manufacturing.. increasingly we're seeing projects that turn into businesses run by Uni's or by individuals connected with Uni's.. I believe in China, that's the normal way? Most things start off as state-funded academic projects, and then go into part/fully state-funded factories.

Actually I'm sure I remember a news article by BBC concerning a UK university who claimed they had developed a new variant type of Lithium battery chemistry which provided a rapid charge cycle in under 30 mins, smaller, lighter package etc..but it was still in the development/testing phase and haven't heard anything more since.. I guess there's still the challenge of how to make even batteries sustainable though, how to design them so the chemicals don't harm the environment and so they can be recycled.

Perhaps one of these uni's will license their technology or sell it outright to some big manufacturer like Panasonic or Toshiba, or maybe some Chinese firm!
This has been happening for half a century, and with the motor industry pushing universities and battery companies hard ever since the Arab Oil Crisis of the early 1970s, the effort and expense has been huge. I've been following all this closely since the early 1960s and what I know is that all the breakthrough announcements are best ignored, they are invariably rubbish. Research needs funding, and funds are only forthcoming if the research shows promise. So it's in the interest of all research establishments to hype and issue regular "progress" announcements.

You mention the announcement of a 30 minute charge time, but Toshiba were demonstrating 2 minute charge times on lithium nearly two decades ago, it's that easy to achieve. Trouble is, it needs low content density meaning huge batteries of low capacity, not very suitable for vehicles due to the bulk and weight. We have a 30 minute charge time e-bike already for example, the Schwinn models using Toshiba's SCiB battery with the Tongxin motor, so what's the catch? Namely the capacity is very low for the battery size due to that low density, and in turn the controller for the Tongxin downrates the power to a low level to achieve an acceptable range.

This sums up the problem, one must trade factors. Fast charge costs either over large battery size or short life. High discharge rates cost short life unless the battery is a huge low density design. What vehicles need is high density compact batteries with high discharge rates and long life, but as you can see, that's not possible, you can pick any one at the cost of one or more of the others.

These broadly apply to all battery technologies and are as much due to the physical laws of our universe as much as anything else. For example, we have known for a long time what the ideal cathode element is for lithium batteries, it's iron, which sits at the top of all the suitable elements. It took decades of work to achieve it's use and we have the results in LiFePO4, so there's nowhere to go with that now, short of creating an entirely new long lasting element in the periodic table. And as you probably know, we can only add those at the end, meaning ever shorter lives, often only a few seconds.

All in all I confidently predict that e-vehicles will never supercede i.c ones or even threaten them. The future is likely to lie in mass public transport with the electrical current supplied remotely, such as in trains, trams, modern trolley buses and personal transport systems. They are super efficient and have no waste batteries to dispose of.
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