BH Emotion Neo Cross - is it legal here?

OxygenJames

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 8, 2012
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Hi all,

I just saw the BH Emotion Neo Cross - looks really neat - see here:

BH Emotion Neo Cross Electric Bike Review - YouTube and BH Emotion Neo Cross

What I need to know is - does anybody know if its legal - they say it has a 350W motor 'limited to 250W'. Is that allowed? Is that legal? I've lost my license so I cant be taking any chances here!

Anybody know anything about these bikes?

Any help would be great.

James (avoiding fixing his squeeky front brake - see earlier post)
 

Cakey

Esteemed Pedelecer
Mar 4, 2012
287
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I also like the cross, pity they are not round the corner from me:(
Kudos state all bikes are legal for uk use.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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It's an unfortunate description of the motor power since the law is clear, the motor must be no more than 250 watts. However, it also a nonsense description, since there is no such thing as a "350 watt motor" or "250 watt" motor, motor powers depend on the Amperage capability of the controller fitted. Clearly if true about the 250 watt limiting, it will have the appropriate controller and in fact be 250 watt and legal.

So is it true? I'd say definitely yes, since the manufacturer BH are a long established and respected Spanish bicycle manufacturer and the first to make e-bikes in Spain. Operating wholly bound by EU pedelec law, it's highly unlikely they would attempt to market an illegal e-bike*. They do however also market extensively in the USA so will include a motor capable of using a higher rated controller for sales there.

*P.S. Before someone says that Kalkhoff, a respected European manufacturer, markets 350 watt pedelecs claimed as legal, they do not. Their 350 watt e-bikes are made for the high speed "S" class which is unique to Germany within the EU. They make legal e-bikes for the EU pedelec class.
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johnc461165

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2011
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WN6
It's an unfortunate description of the motor power since the law is clear, the motor must be no more than 250 watts. However, it also a nonsense description, since there is no such thing as a "350 watt motor" or "250 watt" motor, motor powers depend on the Amperage capability of the controller fitted. Clearly if true about the 250 watt limiting, it will have the appropriate controller and in fact be 250 watt and legal.
Hi flecc I find that very interesting, does that mean if the controller was changed on say the Alien Aurora, that the bike would become UK legal. I would welcome your comments
 

eddieo

Banned
Jul 7, 2008
5,070
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The chat about the BionX motor was similar, in that they were all 350 watt but set up to be compliant for different markets....

cute bike mind! and is that the go swiss direct drive motor again..they are popping up all over. have noticed the BH bikes use low cost suspension..may be good enough for the job but they are not cheap bikes

 
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OxygenJames

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Jan 8, 2012
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Thanks for your responses. Flecc you sound like you know what you're talking about. I would be risking a possible jail term if this is wrong - so you can understand me wanting to have a good answer!

I notice even on my 250W Oxygen it says 'peak' power comes in at a bit over 500W - so I assume it is down to the controller not allowing this to be a 'continuous' amount of power - am I close to the truth?

Anyways - I do like the look of the thing and with the amount I am saving through not running the R1 and the XJR then I have to spend that cash somewhere right? You are allowed two electric bikes right? There's no law against that is there??
 

eddieo

Banned
Jul 7, 2008
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ha ha ha.. some on here have 6 or so...most at least 2:p

Just get down to kudos and try all the BH bikes, only so much you can learn on line
 
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Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
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Oxgen James....be assured that the moment I read that '350 watt limited to 250 watt' motor on the BH Emotion Neo Cross.City and X/Treme I contacted BH Emotion UK and they assured me the motors are limited to 250 watts power.
I stock at KudosCycles the BH Emotion Cross,X-Treme,Xenion 650 and Xenion 700....also test bikes X-treme 700 and Xenion 650. They are all beautifully finished bikes,I particularly like the Xenion 700....you are free to come down and test ride any of the test bikes and also compare with the full Kudos range,a ride along the seafront to Herne Bay on a nice day is a pleasant test,as others on this site will testify.
We will have samples of all bikes at every show we are attending(please look on our website)....the London test an e-bike day,May 27, at the Redbridge Cycling Centre,North-East london will be the best opportunity ever to compare all our bikes plus others from our competitors (if they are brave enough to allow their bikes to be compared with BH and Kudos!!!!!).
By then our new Safari bike (easy step through,ideal for shorter riders) and our Secret bike (lightweight folder)will also be available.
Good luck with your search
By the way it is compulsory to have at least 2 e-bikes !!!!!!!!!
Dave
KudosCycles
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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Hi flecc I find that very interesting, does that mean if the controller was changed on say the Alien Aurora, that the bike would become UK legal. I would welcome your comments
Yes. Just changing the controller with one that accords with legality is all that would be needed. However, what accords with legality is a difficult point, see my next answer to James following shortly.
 

eddieo

Banned
Jul 7, 2008
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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Thanks for your responses. Flecc you sound like you know what you're talking about. I would be risking a possible jail term if this is wrong - so you can understand me wanting to have a good answer!

I notice even on my 250W Oxygen it says 'peak' power comes in at a bit over 500W - so I assume it is down to the controller not allowing this to be a 'continuous' amount of power - am I close to the truth?

Anyways - I do like the look of the thing and with the amount I am saving through not running the R1 and the XJR then I have to spend that cash somewhere right? You are allowed two electric bikes right? There's no law against that is there??
None of our motors is in truth exactly according to the law, the fact being that a true 250 watts continuous maximum power would be useless. Manufacturers interpret the law on a more average basis of power delivered. In fact most legal e-bikes have a maximum power of between 400 and 600 watts, the odd ones exceeding 700 watts. These are called "peak" power and said to be only short term to avoid overheating, but in fact that's nonsense since they can operate at maximum level for the whole of their battery charge without overheating.

The situation is complicated by the two power expressions, gross power being the wattage derived from the battery voltage times the controller amperage capability, e.g. 37 volts x 14 amps = 518 watts. Since no system is 100% efficient, the net power that comes out as driving force is less by 15 to 25%, depending on the system, so that 518 watts can be anything from 388 to 440 watts of actual driving power.

However, even that is provisional, since battery voltages are nominal. A 37 volt lithium battery comprises 10 x 3.7 volt cells in series, but the 3.7 volts is nominal. Fully charged each cell is over 4.1 volts, but at end of charge it's dropped to only 3.2 volts meaning the battery of 10 cells changes from 41 volts to 32 volts as it's used each charge. Since this changes the calculations above, the power wattages change. Therefore the 388 to 440 watts of actual power mentioned above is really [336 minimum or 430 watts maximum] to [380 watt minimum or 488 watts maximum] actual power delivered.

So it's is rather like answering the question, "How long is a piece of string?"

The key thing is that that the manufacturer unequivocally states the bike is EU/UK legal, and that manufacturer is a respectable and known one. The laboratories which test e-bikes to the EN15194 standard appear to understand the true position and test to find declared bikes as legal. For example, one very well known manufacturer fits 16 amp controllers to his 37 volt e-bikes with motors of around 80% efficiency. That means gross power of 592 watts and net actual delivered power of 474 watts. They have been tested by an approved EN laboratory and found to be 250 watt legal with certificates issued!

It seems the European parliament is also aware of this nonsensical position, since they are recommending to the EU commission that the law be changed to remove all power restriction, relying only on the 15 mph speed limit in future. It remains to be seen whether that gets accepted.

P.S. You are allowed as many e-bikes as you like, we have members with several. I've owned three at one time, two of them declared legal e-bikes with peak gross powers of over 1000 watts!
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Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
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Eddie...All these Neo bikes have amazingly quick initial take off,we have a theory here that the larger motor diameter gives a stronger initial torque reaction. We had some early test bikes from China which had non geared very large diameter motors and they exhibited the same rapid low soeed acceleration.
However once above 5 mph they seem to perform about the same as a Kudos hub drive bike.
I am not on the BH emotion site at the moment but I think the Neo City bike is a drop crossbar.
I think the BH emotion Xenion 700 bike with Bosch power is the best bike I sell but it is expensive compared to the Kudos range, over twice the price....the crank drive allows you to select the perfect gear for any hill and it allows you to be lazy on hill climbing if you choose.
However if I lived in a mainly flat area with only the occasional hill I would have a hub drive with speed sensor....maybe I haven't ridden the Bosch drive bikes long enough but I find the torque sensor a bit annoying on the flat,it is necessary to keep pressure on the pedals,as opposed to just turning the pedals on a hub drive-this means progress on the flat I find less smooth,but it may be lack of practice.
Respect these are my personal opinions not wearing my Kudos salesman's hat!!!!
Dave
KudosCycles
 

OxygenJames

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 8, 2012
2,593
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Thanks Dave - glad you've cleared up the fact that you're allowed to own more than one electric bike - I was worried there for a moment.

I'm still not 100% clear on the exact law around all this - but the more I read the more I think thats pretty common. What concerns me is mr Plod seeing 350W stamped on the bike and thinking thats good enough for me you're going down.

What exactly does the Neo Cross have written on the bike itself - thats what interests me! (if you can answer that I would appreciate it - thanks)
 

mike killay

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 17, 2011
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However if I lived in a mainly flat area with only the occasional hill I would have a hub drive with speed sensor....maybe I haven't ridden the Bosch drive bikes long enough but I find the torque sensor a bit annoying on the flat,it is necessary to keep pressure on the pedals,as opposed to just turning the pedals on a hub drive-this means progress on the flat I find less smooth,but it may be lack of practice.
Respect these are my personal opinions not wearing my Kudos salesman's hat!!!!
Dave
KudosCycles
It is interesting that you mention a downside to torque sensors, because I have always been doubtful of their need on what is in reality a very feeble motor bike. The simple magnet ring, accompanied by a power level setting device on the handlebar works well and also allows 'underpedalling'
Bicycles in general make many compromises with best engineering practice, for example the pinch friction system of holding the saddle post and handlebars, but they are sufficient for the loads involved and any better engineering will bring a weight penalty with it. So, I cannot see any reason for over complication when it comes to the electrical components. Now, your post suggests that such a practice has a downside.
 

OxygenJames

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 8, 2012
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Wow. Now that's what I call a through answer! Excellent. Thanks.

As I said to Dave I think its important that the EN15194 is stamped on the bike and/or it says 250W on the bike - so that a copper does not have to think too hard about putting the handcuffs on.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,136
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It is interesting that you mention a downside to torque sensors, because I have always been doubtful of their need on what is in reality a very feeble motor bike.
They aren't all that feeble. Many have been a bit shocked by the initial snatch off the mark of bikes without torque sensors, one recent new member saying he was too frightened to use his newly bought bike after trying it once.

When working on it, I once accidentally nudged a pedal on a non-torque sensor bike that was switched to pedelec mode and it leapt away and smashed a hole in a panel door. Couldn't have happened with a torque sensor.

The Bosch system Dave remarks on has been criticised before for it's responses to its power delivery cutoff, while others praise it and deny any problem. Clearly it's more a matter of individual preference rather than one system being superior to another, though in general pundits tend to prefer the sophistication of torque controlled systems and they are mostly found on the high end bikes.
 

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
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Oxygen James...as this matter is very critical to you personally I strongly suggest that you write to BH Emotion UK with your questions....I am obviously not at work at the moment so cannot comment on what is identified on the bicycle.
Dave
KudosCycles
 

Jimod

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 9, 2010
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Polmont
I've said it before but I like the simple pedal sensor on my bike. I don't fancy a torque sensor as sometimes after a long climb I get on the flat at the top and just turn the pedals slowly and my bike does the rest for me. It's as good as a cyclist stopping for a rest. :) I don't know why someone would be caught out by it pulling away, as that's when you'd be pressing the pedals hard anyway so the torque sensor should be working at its peak.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,136
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I don't know why someone would be caught out by it pulling away, as that's when you'd be pressing the pedals hard anyway so the torque sensor should be working at its peak.
No you wouldn't necessarily, that's not how it is in practice. Pulling away in a confined traffic situation for example, gentle pressure can give controlled slow progress. Worst bikes of all in these situations are pedelec-only no torque sensor bikes without throttles, since they just chuck all the power in straight off the mark.
 

NRG

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 6, 2009
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Excellent post further up-thread Flecc, just to add, the manufactures wattage rating of a motor is supposed to be the maximum continous power at which the motor can be run to meet its life cycle IE: Wear, heat, reliability etc. but as we know in use they can be used at much greater power levels for short periods and they would consume as much power as the controller could give until they destroy themselves....