Best practice winters

[Paul Wrighton]

I'm having some range issues with my new bike (see Sig). Then I read in the gocycle winter guidance that battery life can be degraded to as low as 50% when temp falls to zero.

I read some useful advice here, but most folks seem to think it should not be no problem.

Range aside, there's the question of charging. Again gocycle state the bike will not charge with temperature below five Celsius this could be a very major issue for me. Beautiful as my gocycle might be my wife will not allow any bike in the house period.

We have an old coal cellar outside our basement door, and I've run power outlets there.

It's early days and so far the bikes taken charge there, but I'm wondering if there are dividends to be had from a greenhouse heater in the cupboard perhaps?

Do any other forum members have similar situations to me?

If I carry my charger to work and get permission for an indoor charging session would that pay dividends?

I wish I could just fit a bigger battery, as I did with my emtb, but sadly that is not an option with the gocycle... The price of those good looks....

Especially keen to hear from any other gocycle owners, there surely must be some on the forum?

 

[sjpt]

(moved from the other thread)
You lose a bit of range in winter, but shouldn't nearly as bad as 1/2. Bosch range assistant knocks around 20% odd its estimate for winter. https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/service/range-assistant/

It is important not to charge a battery at low temperatures (below 4 or 5 degrees C?).
I understand that won't just give decreased range but be bad for the battery longer term;
that could be fake news however, one of the experts here may correct me on that.
Always charge indoors in winter. Awkward advice for a bike with a battery that isn't easily removed, however.

 

[Paul Wrighton]

...
that could be fake news however, one of the experts here may correct me on that...

Well I seriously hope it IS just a scare, or I'm in trouble! Could either see greenhouse heater in my future, OR worse yet mothballing my hugely expensive new bike whenever temperatures fall below five degrees. Much as I love riding my Ridgeback tourer I wanted to do so on my own terms!

So step forward experts and let's get to the bottom of this please.

 

[MontyPAS]

Beautiful as my gocycle might be my wife will not allow any bike in the house period.

Time for a new wife?

 

[Paul Wrighton]

Time for a new wife?

Wouldn't get far on the tandem then!

 

[Nealh]

Where is the battery being charged ?
One can expect a little decrease in capacity when cols but never anywhere near 50%.
Only time one might see such a low figure is if you charge it outside in freezing shed or the like.

 

[Paul Wrighton]

The situation, since the bikes not to go in and the battery can't come out, is that it has to be charged outside the basement door or in the coal hole. I'm considering augmenting the coal hole with a greenhouse heater to take the edge off, cause it sounds like I'm suffering pretty low charges in winter.... This is a problem I did Not forsee! Would wrapping blanket round bike Frame help at all?... Smiling

 

[Nealh]

The issue sounds like charging in the very cold is affecting capacity retention, the battery needs to be well above freezing for charging . The cold won't affect cell life just the fact that capacity retention will remain low until ambient temps are higher for charging.

 

[Paul Wrighton]

Many thanks. Makes sense from my a level physics.

Just curious if the act of charging raises cells temperature significantly? In which case the blanket might actually be useful?

 

[Nealh]

Many thanks. Makes sense from my a level physics.

Just curious if the act of charging raises cells temperature significantly? In which case the blanket might actually be useful?

A heated blanket might help, warm the bike up before charging commences. The act of charging doesn't heat/pre heat cells, the only heat is the conversion from AC - DC within the charger.

With a 4k price tag it would live in my bedroom. I keep two bikes indoors one in the hall and one in the L/R.

 

[georgehenry]

Sounds like you will need to heat the area you are charging your bike, if only for the time it is charging. Maybe a simple timer plug. I would heat the bike in its coal hole for an hour before you start charging and time the heater to stop after the charge has been completed.

The gocycle folds down and may have some bespoke bag or cover so finding a spot it the house that does not irk your wife too much would be greatly preferable.

As a fan but not owner of a gocycle this might be a case of form triumphing over function, at least in your specific case where you have nowhere warm to charge the battery.

Hindsight is of course a wonderful thing but a electric bike with an easily removed battery to charge indoors might have been a better idea in your case.

Though I have two older style electric bikes with batteries that are behind the seat post and are more of a flaff to remove so I generally don't. They live in my unheated brick garage and are charged in there and seem to last well enough and give a range that is what I expect.

I also have a Haibike crank drive mountain bike. The battery on that can be easily removed and because of that I always remove it and bring it into the house. It is coming to the end of its 6th year and working in practical terms as well as it did when it was new which I find remarkable.

Good job however as the replacement cost of the Haibike battery is £650 not including a charger and the replacement costs of the batteries for the bikes in the garage are £190 including a charger.

 

[Paul Wrighton]

With a 4k price tag it would live in my bedroom. I keep two bikes indoors one in the hall and one in the L/R.

I envy you that! The irony is I bought this bike to downsize from a garage... Insurance must be my goto

 

[flecc]

Well I seriously hope it IS just a scare, or I'm in trouble!

I certainly wouldnt worry about this Paul. My electric car uses a perfectly ordinary lithium ion battery which, like almost all e-cars is slung under the car body exposed to the outside air, and it has no battery heater. It routinely gets charged in winter down to almost zero degrees. All that happens is that it accepts less charge but recovers each spring/summer with warmer weather.

And the country which has most enthusiastically accepted e-cars in the world is Norway straddling the Arctic circle, where over 50% of all their new car registrations are for fully electrics. There from 2025 all internal combustion car sales will be totally banned.

In Britain I'd be surprised if you lost more than a third of the range in the coldest weather, so I'd say enjoy your GoCycle without worrying.
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[WheezyRider]

Most buildings attached to the house are often a little above freezing, even when it is very cold outside, so most of the time you should be fine. Have you got a thermometer in there? Seems daft to heat a whole outbuilding just to charge a battery. Maybe some kind of heated blanket for the battery...

I've noticed a drop off in range and peak output when Li batteries are below 10 C and it becomes significant below 5 C. I would say a 20% loss is about right, 50% seems excessive. The advice is not to charge a battery when it is 0 C or below - from Wikipedia:

Extreme temperatures
Charging temperature limits for Li-ion are stricter than the operating limits. Lithium-ion chemistry performs well at elevated temperatures but prolonged exposure to heat reduces battery life.

Li‑ion batteries offer good charging performance at cooler temperatures and may even allow 'fast-charging' within a temperature range of 5 to 45 °C (41 to 113 °F).[135][better source needed] Charging should be performed within this temperature range. At temperatures from 0 to 5 °C charging is possible, but the charge current should be reduced. During a low-temperature charge, the slight temperature rise above ambient due to the internal cell resistance is beneficial. High temperatures during charging may lead to battery degradation and charging at temperatures above 45 °C will degrade battery performance, whereas at lower temperatures the internal resistance of the battery may increase, resulting in slower charging and thus longer charging times.[135][better source needed]

Consumer-grade lithium-ion batteries should not be charged at temperatures below 0 °C (32 °F). Although a battery pack[136] may appear to be charging normally, electroplating of metallic lithium can occur at the negative electrode during a subfreezing charge, and may not be removable even by repeated cycling. Most devices equipped with Li-ion batteries do not allow charging outside of 0–45 °C for safety reasons, except for mobile phones that may allow some degree of charging when they detect an emergency call in progress.[137]



Charging a battery does generate some heat, but at normal charging rates, not that much.

Maybe the best thing to do would be to build an insulated box for the bike using Kingspan/Cellotex foam insulation sheets in your outbuilding. Put a small heater in that and it should keep the bike warm enough and not cost too much to run energy wise:

Kingspan TP10 Roof Insulation Board - 2400 x 1200 x 50mm | Wickes.co.uk

Kingspan TP10 Roof Insulation Board - 2400 x 1200 x 50mm

www.wickes.co.uk

 

[WheezyRider]

I certainly wouldnt worry about this Paul. My electric car uses a perfectly ordinary lithium ion battery which, like almost all e-cars is slung under the car body exposed to the outside air, and it has no battery heater. It routinely gets charged in winter down to almost zero degrees. All that happens is that it accepts less charge but recovers each spring/summer with warmer weather.

And the country which has most enthusiastically accepted e-cars in the world is Norway straddling the Arctic circle, where over 50% of all their new car registrations are for fully electrics. There from 2025 all internal combustion car sales will be totally banned.

In Britain I'd be surprised if you lost more than a third of the range in the coldest weather, so I'd say enjoy your GoCycle without worrying.
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Do electric cars sense battery temperature and initiate a heating cycle before charging if <0 C? Cars are a lot more sophisticated than e-bikes.

 

[flecc]

Do electric cars sense battery temperature and initiate a heating cycle before charging if <0 C? Cars are a lot more sophisticated than e-bikes.

Only some in certain markets, my 2018 Nissan Leaf doesn't and as said, is little affected in winter in Britain. It just accepts less charge when cold, losing me a maximum of 30% range, some of that loss to due to heating the car's cabin to keep me warm.

In any case I've read online that on the earlier models with heaters they only cut in at below common British winter low temperatures, all below zero degrees C.
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[Deleted member 33385]

Maybe some kind of heated blanket for the battery...

I'd worry about over-heating the battery.

How about placing your bike in a small tent while it's charging? A smaller space like that could be very economically heated by a 80W-200W tube heater - they're about 2 to 4ft in length. You could connect the heater to a temperature controlled plug. Otherwise you'll be battling endless draughts and heating a much larger volume of air.

 

[sjpt]

It is important not to charge a battery at low temperatures (below 4 or 5 degrees C?).
I understand that won't just give decreased range but be bad for the battery longer term;

I am glad to say it appears I was wrong on the long term effects.

I think an electric blanket on low will use very little energy (much less than even an economical space heater) and is very unlikely to overheat the battery. Spread it right and you'll even have a warm saddle to start your morning commute.

 

[Andy-Mat]

(moved from the other thread)
You lose a bit of range in winter, but shouldn't nearly as bad as 1/2. Bosch range assistant knocks around 20% odd its estimate for winter. https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/service/range-assistant/

It is important not to charge a battery at low temperatures (below 4 or 5 degrees C?).
I understand that won't just give decreased range but be bad for the battery longer term;
that could be fake news however, one of the experts here may correct me on that.
Always charge indoors in winter. Awkward advice for a bike with a battery that isn't easily removed, however.

A very good point, that I and many others did not consider, at purchase, if we are honest!
My own (now updated!) view is that any e-bike should have a reasonably easy to remove battery, for both reasons of security, as well as for charging and preventing any possible damage to the battery, due to low outside temperatures......
Some European and Scandanavian countries can even see temperatures well below -20°C. What does that do to a Li-ion battery left outside?
Though winters are getting warmer, its not something that one can plan on or for!
Some years ago we had -28°C where I live (mid Germany), for most of a week, in January I believe...
Therefore, if you cannot/will not bring the whole bike into the house (warm place), then one must be really careful about which model of bike one buys.....and fighting a poor design of bike/battery in cold and wet, maybe even in the dark, is a hobby that I do not wish to start or think about!!
regards to all for 2021
Andy

 

[flecc]

I've noticed a drop off in range and peak output when Li batteries are below 10 C and it becomes significant below 5 C. I would say a 20% loss is about right, 50% seems excessive. The advice is not to charge a battery when it is 0 C or below - from Wikipedia:

I've just used my e-car for a post Christmas shop. It had been on charge overnight at temperatures between +1 and -1 degrees C and the range indication when I set out was 149 miles. The best indication I've ever had was 172 miles at the warmest point of this last summer, so that's an indicated 13.3% loss due to very cold charging.

Allowing for the known greater optimism with cold weather range indications, the true range loss from this latest charge will be a little over 20%.
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