Bendy buses and bikes

[flecc]

Just been viewing the bendy buses in Beijing, together with hordes of cyclists meandering around in all directions, and wondered why we seem to have so much of a problem with them. They don't seem to there, and bendy buses have operated for years on the continent, seemingly without problems. In my outer London borough we have bendy trams which share the roads with traffic in a number of locations, but it's pedestrians who seem to end up underneath them, rather than cyclists.

Obviously our inner and central London roads are often narrow, but plenty of the bendy bus cities and towns in Europe also have their share of narrow roads, so that alone shouldn't be the problem. Maybe it's our bus drivers, or maybe our cyclists just aren't used to the bendy buses as much as the continental cyclists who seem to allow for them without accidents.

Just seems odd that we have so much trouble with a vehicle that's been in widespread use in many parts of the world for many years.
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[frank9755]

I think you're right that it is a London thing. I've seen them in Seattle and Vancouver, which have mainly big wide grid-pattern streets and they seem to work fine. They even have bike carriers on the front so passengers can have an integrated travel experience. Beijing also has wide and straight streets so probably works similarly.

In London, of course many of our streets are both narrow and have bends in them making ultra-long vehicles less practical. That causes one type of bendy bus hazard. I've been cut up by a bendy bus which cut a gentle corner and squeezed me against the kerb.

The other bendy bus problem (which I've also experienced) is when they pull in to a stop and cut across cyclists. That's nothing to do with our streets and has to be a driver training issue.

 

[flecc]

I think the corners and bendy buses thing is the same as that with trucks Frank, cyclists best not getting alongside them, or when finding themselves there, dropping back. I never ride alongside any truck or bus, either staying ahead or dropping back. Obviously knowing what route the bus takes is important too, enabling a cyclist to keep clear at the salient corners, and I dare say the continentals are more familiar in that respect.

Of course the bus drivers don't have full rear vision during cornering, but that's no different from driving an artic which I've a variety of experience of doing.

I agree about the wider streets in many locations, but the bendys do use some narrower streets in some of the European cities, it's not all broadways in those. I can't help feeling that with time a better relationship could be achieved, especially if the least suitable routes have them removed and employed elsewhere.
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[JohnInStockie]

I think its a case of self sealing theories Flecc, "The cyclist doesnt believe that the big vehicles will give them room, and so try's to make their own, while the big truck thinks the cyclists ride unpredictably, and so just tries to drive as in 'normal' vehicular traffic".

For me this is where the planners have a responsibility, but planners here are designing roads for cars, and thats about it. I've seen nearly all of the 'summer hols' road improvements near me are to place white chevrons in the middle of the road and reducing the road width, with the occasional concrete pedestrian island, not cycle friendly at all

 

[Mussels]

I think the corners and bendy buses thing is the same as that with trucks Frank, cyclists best not getting alongside them, or when finding themselves there, dropping back. I never ride alongside any truck or bus, either staying ahead or dropping back.

Then I guess you don't ride in the city, you're not going to get far at all if you drop back every time you are alongside a truck or bus.

Obviously knowing what route the bus takes is important too, enabling a cyclist to keep clear at the salient corners, and I dare say the continentals are more familiar in that respect.

Of course the bus drivers don't have full rear vision during cornering, but that's no different from driving an artic which I've a variety of experience of doing.

A bendy bus is very different to an arctic and IME blocks the road far more frequently, usually because of bus stop positioning. This morning one pulled away from a bus stop on a dual carriageway and moved immediately into the right hand lane, this meant that he blocked the entire road and I had to cross two lanes to get around him. He had also pulled up very close to the bus in front so was difficult to pass, if the lights had changed he would have just driven off and forced me into the central reservation. When a bus stop is close to a junction they can cause havoc and most of Londons bus stops seem to be by junctions. I also see them block junctions and pedestrian crossings often, I don't know if the drivers don't care or need training but there is quite a problem.

I agree about the wider streets in many locations, but the bendys do use some narrower streets in some of the European cities, it's not all broadways in those. I can't help feeling that with time a better relationship could be achieved, especially if the least suitable routes have them removed and employed elsewhere.
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I like using them as a passenger, they are much easier to get on and off but that doesn't mean we have to have them.

 

[flecc]

Then I guess you don't ride in the city, you're not going to get far at all if you drop back every time you are alongside a truck or bus.

Yes, I realise that problem in some central parts, the sheer number of buses making it not an option. But not all the cyclist accidents with buses and trucks have been caused in those circumstances, many of them where cyclists have been just plain daft in the way they've stayed in a blind spot approaching a possible left turn, like cycling underneath a truck's left mirrors.

A bendy bus is very different to an arctic and IME blocks the road far more frequently, usually because of bus stop positioning. This morning one pulled away from a bus stop on a dual carriageway and moved immediately into the right hand lane, this meant that he blocked the entire road and I had to cross two lanes to get around him.

An artic is very much the same as a bendy bus if the same immediate manouvres are performed, sharp lane changes in a very short distance, since it also then straddles two lanes, blocking them. As you say, bus stop positioning close to where they have to change lanes or turn is going to cause that problem, not the driver's fault of course.

None of this changes the fact that in other countries they manage though. If people are to be persuaded to use public transport their experience has to be improved, and your comment on liking the bendys as a passenger is part of that process. It may well be that we won't go down that road again, but now we have them they've got to be used meanwhile, as Boris has realised belatedly.
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[frank9755]

I think the corners and bendy buses thing is the same as that with trucks Frank, cyclists best not getting alongside them, or when finding themselves there, dropping back. I never ride alongside any truck or bus, either staying ahead or dropping back. Obviously knowing what route the bus takes is important too, enabling a cyclist to keep clear at the salient corners, and I dare say the continentals are more familiar in that respect.

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The particular behaviour I'm referring to is when a bus approaches a stop or corner at speed, overtakes the cyclist, then cuts in and brakes sharply to make its stop, or negotiate the bend, or avoid oncoming traffic.

Most bus drivers don't do this. In my experience they will normally wait until I am clear and then pull in. However a small minority do. With a normal length bus you have the chance to slow down in the way you describe and go round the back, but the bendys are just too long; you have to actually stop dead and sometimes even turn your bike round and go backwards.

I fear that however carefully you ride, there's not much that can be done to avoid this, and that it is potentially dangerous (and would be equally so if a driver were to do it in Frankfurt or Amsterdam!).

To put it into context, I've exprienced this maybe three times in the last year of commuting so I can't say it is a widespread problem. I find the vast majority of London bus drivers to be courteous and safe drivers; its just that the odd bad one is more of a menace in a 60-foot vehicle than in a 40-foot one.

Frank