eBike Batteries
ebikebatteries.co.uk
he isn't dead yet and if you want the best thats it but you got to pay for it and that spot welder is 25k
Battery Fires
- Thread starter saneagle
- Start date
ebikebatteries.co.uk
he isn't dead yet and if you want the best thats it but you got to pay for it and that spot welder is 25k
That's the point. You have to also consider that batteries from 10 years ago were nowhere near the quality of today's average cheap Chinese ones, and still we didn't have problems.At least none of the past or present members on here have ever reported a fire.
I would love to be an investigator for the fire service. I'd know what questions to ask, and I'm sure I'd get to the root of the problem quite quickly instead of all these university professors sitting in their labs theorising failure modes, then making irrelevant regulations that won't solve anything.
That's how I made all my money. I invented the simplest problem solving system. No maths was involved, no fancy diagrams and no convoluted theories. I called it "Find and Fix". When you have a problem, you go and look at it. You touch whatever and whoever is involved. At that point, there's a 90% chance that the cause of the problem and its solution are obvious. Sort it and go to the next.
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The risk factors are well-known though. Larger cells are less risky. The problem is how to maintain good gravimetric density with larger cells. Still, the risk is small compared to ordinary petrol oe diesel. The average car has 30-40 litres of petrol or diesel, or about 400kwh, much more than the average ev.
This is the sort of theorising that can send us in the wrong direction. For each battery that catches fire, there's a specific reason. Maybe I can explain better by way of example.
In 1996 the top range Vaillant boilers were failing on average three times during the warranty period. They had invited all the top consultants in to help solve the problem, but they made zero progress. If anything, it got worse. They actually had quite a good data system that gave codes for various defects found, and departments did a lot of data analysis.
My first action was to call a meeting with the chiefs of every department involved - quality, development, design, production, service and supply. I had a printout of all the defect codes and rates, and the diverter valve was at the top of the list, so I asked them what was going wrong with it. Instead of answers, I got opinions. I stopped the meeting very quickly and asked the guy from the quality department to bring 50 returned diverter valves to the meeting tomorrow and 8 sets of tools so that everybody could dismantle one and see what was wrong with it. These managers were not impressed, but the CEO had set me the task of telling him which ones he needed to fire, and they knew it.
At the next meeting, each participant was given a valve with its defect code, and the dismantling started. The first one had the code for leaking. It had a ball of expanded polystyrene from the packaging stuck between two sealing surfaces. No amount of theorising would ever have found that. The next and many more thereafter with the code for "not working" had a total gungey mess inside because somehow zinc plated screws instead of the prescribed stainless ones had been used to hold a copper spring. it caused massive corrosion. Within three meetings, we'd found about 20 common causes that accounted for about 95% of all faults. All had simple solutions, like putting a strong magnet on the shoot where the screws went in to the screwing robot. Worry about why some of the screws were the wrong material and where they came from later.
This way of doing things is not the German way. After the first meeting, all those guys hated me and were making snide remarks that they thought I couldn't understand, but we all became friends when the problems were solved and they kept their jobs. Vaillant is still in business and making boilers that don't break so easily.
Your example falls into the area of QA in design and manufacturing while the bulk of battery research goes still on their chemistry at the moment.
Instead, they should concentrate on what's causing fires. All the chemistry in the world won't stop wires from getting chomped or stupid owners removing the BMS or parking their bike next to an electric car.
Battery fires are a relatively small risk. If you get the chemistry right, thermal runaway can be eliminated altogether.
You've gotta love forensic fault finding. Finding what is rather than what someone thinks it is.
That's what I'm saying. We can talk all day and make theories but we don't have the facts.
In an ice car fire it's known that the main accelerant is petrol/diesel. However the fuel doesn't get the blame, a source of ignition is always looked for.
Within the hyperbolic reporting of 'battery fires' the source of ignition is never sought after. Whether fire investigation services are looking deeper into it is moot because we don't get to know and the media wouldn't report it anyway. So we are edging towards the situation where li-ion batteries are being regarded, by the public in general, as a source of some sort of spontaneous combustion. 'Those devil batteries, ban'em all'.
One would hope that there is forensic examination of the cause of these fires and that the developing experts involved have calmer heads and are able to bring their knowledge to the right people. But the urge to be seen to be doing something is strong in politicians and regulators and I fear a 'ban that particular breed of dog' knee jerk response to the hyperbolae.
Within the hyperbolic reporting of 'battery fires' the source of ignition is never sought after. Whether fire investigation services are looking deeper into it is moot because we don't get to know and the media wouldn't report it anyway. So we are edging towards the situation where li-ion batteries are being regarded, by the public in general, as a source of some sort of spontaneous combustion. 'Those devil batteries, ban'em all'.
One would hope that there is forensic examination of the cause of these fires and that the developing experts involved have calmer heads and are able to bring their knowledge to the right people. But the urge to be seen to be doing something is strong in politicians and regulators and I fear a 'ban that particular breed of dog' knee jerk response to the hyperbolae.
We all would appreciate more facts and some logical conclusions, but truth to be told what we really need are safe methods of storing batteries while they are not in use, as this is when batteries are most dangerous.
On that we can work right now without all facts on why batteries explode.
In my opinion a lot of advice about how to charge and store batteries is misguided and incorrect.
The truth is not storage , it is more the facts of how they are charged or abused in use.
Never yet heard of a member having a battery fire in the 10/11 years I have been following the forum or been a forum member.
Storage is simple a dry ,cool place away from a heat source .
Though some have said they keep them in an airing cupboard.
Never yet heard of a member having a battery fire in the 10/11 years I have been following the forum or been a forum member.
Storage is simple a dry ,cool place away from a heat source .
Though some have said they keep them in an airing cupboard
.
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You should be a government minister. We need thinking like that. Unfortunately, the last thing that will happen is what you suggest. The first thing that will happen is that public money will be given to old friends in the club, who know nothing, and they'll recruit the guys that shout off the loudest about their hysterical theories.
We all know some basics. Don't: drop, kick, shot at, hammer nails into, put in fire, charge with wrong charger etc etc
It is when batteries are stored and when charged they are most deadly. I never experienced battery fire or house fire, but they do happen and none of us wants that. Some easy precautions could reduce risk nearly to zero.
It's almost like we need a well informed public information campaign, giving the basics on charging , storing etc.
I wonder how many places went up in flames in the early days of petrol before people knew how to treat it? In early days it was sold by chemist shops.
This forum does well with information, and has helped me a lot over the last 10 years, but still there is the constant need to re-adress misinformation people arrive with, ranging from hearsay to urban myth.
Wouldn't it be great to have an informal college of eapc's dealing with this area. Of course, in these litigant times, the liabilties would be huge and prohibitive. Might save some lives though.
I wonder how many places went up in flames in the early days of petrol before people knew how to treat it? In early days it was sold by chemist shops.
This forum does well with information, and has helped me a lot over the last 10 years, but still there is the constant need to re-adress misinformation people arrive with, ranging from hearsay to urban myth.
Wouldn't it be great to have an informal college of eapc's dealing with this area. Of course, in these litigant times, the liabilties would be huge and prohibitive. Might save some lives though.
Woosh has had racks of batteries in storage, and he's been charging them from time to time. That's been going on for more than 10 years. He has never had a fire. Likewise, I've had at least 10 good batteries plus a pallet load of faulty ones stored at my house for more than 10 years. They never caught fire either. That sort of destroys your theory.
Nor me since the day the forum opened in October 2006.
Over seventeen years of mostly lithium battery charging and usage by at least 15,000 members joining over the years, without a single fire.
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