Batteries too expensive!!
- Thread starter UrbanPuma
- Start date
they are not expensive. Lithium-ion batteries, especially the matured 18650 cells, are high tech products and the market is intensely competitive. You get excellent value for money. Always buy your battery with branded cells, the better quality control is well worth the premium. We use Samsung 18650-29E and Panasonic 18650F cells, the current best in the market.
There seems to be an expectation - fuelled by what's happened with some tech gadgets - that all electrical items will halve in price every few years.
Similarly, the technology is meant to improve in leaps and bounds in the same timescale.
Those of us who have studied the market can see this does not, and never will, apply to ebike batteries.
The market for a built ebike battery pack is tiny, so there's no economies of scale - even if the makers were prepared to pass on savings from mass manufacture.
Technology has improved in some respects because the likes of Bosch can make it all but impossible for anything other than their batteries to work on the bike.
Which means they can charge what they like, although a premium celled generic pack can be up to £400 which makes the Bosch batteries look only very, not ludicrously, expensive.
Similarly, the technology is meant to improve in leaps and bounds in the same timescale.
Those of us who have studied the market can see this does not, and never will, apply to ebike batteries.
The market for a built ebike battery pack is tiny, so there's no economies of scale - even if the makers were prepared to pass on savings from mass manufacture.
Technology has improved in some respects because the likes of Bosch can make it all but impossible for anything other than their batteries to work on the bike.
Which means they can charge what they like, although a premium celled generic pack can be up to £400 which makes the Bosch batteries look only very, not ludicrously, expensive.
that is light and a great price. Did you have it made?. The 16ah on my Eagle weighs 5.5 kilo about 4yrs old. Seems like the technology has moved on quite a bit in that time
most batteries behind seat post are made with soft pouch cells. When you come to get a new battery, choose 18650 cells, they are lighterweight. Batteries made with 18650 cells are usually 40- or 50-cell packs, 40-cell packs weigh 2kg, 50-cell packs s 2.5kgs for the cells, plus casing. 18650 cells have also better safety features, with steel jacket and anti-explosion device built into individual cells.
Whilst progress may not appear meteoric, I do think we are moving forwards. My 16 a/hour Freego Eagle battery has lasted 5 years 2 months. It has covered over 7000 miles. I have just had it re-celled by Insat, and I now have 20.9 A/hours and it weighs 3.8 kgs instead of 5.5kgs.
That's almost 25% more capacity together with around 25% less weight, and it cost 30% less than an OEM replacement. What's not to like?
I now have Boston cells with Hi-Tec Copper interconnects, and for the hundreds of hours of fun I am expecting from it, that's a great deal.
That's almost 25% more capacity together with around 25% less weight, and it cost 30% less than an OEM replacement. What's not to like?
I now have Boston cells with Hi-Tec Copper interconnects, and for the hundreds of hours of fun I am expecting from it, that's a great deal.
Hi I think that that is a very good question .. but when you ask ... It begs the question ..... compared to what.
Anybody interested in renewable energy gets around to the problem of energy storage sooner or later.
As point of comparison we can use the Lead acid batteries . They are a very long established technology and are good for only 200 to 300 cycles. They are heavy and reliable within these ranges. So this is probably the best reference for comparison.
How much do you value extended recharge cycles
How much do you value size reduction
How much do you value weight reduction.
There are plenty of Wikipedia articles detailing the energy density of the various energy storage options.
E bike users are seeking about 400 watt hrs of energy at around 36v and a peak current demand of 20A and an expectation of 600 recharge cycles before significant loss of battery performance. They would like this in a package which weighs under 3kg or less.
Examine the technologies which can provide this and it is a short list.
Eaglerider, you decided to keep your bike then. I thought you were looking at a replacement. I am coming to a similar stage. New bike or refurbish. Like the Eagle but was thinking of trying to make it a bit lighter and up to date with a better motor etc
D
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They're not. Have a look at Ebay. you can get good standard batteries from about £150.
Hi Gray198. Yes indeed, I trawled the options, but I found some of the snappier models were less comfortable and didn't justify another £1000 really. I like long range for long trips and there are very few options that provide 20 A/Hours. I hope to get 50 miles with extensive use of full power now. I will probably fit new brakes and a new bottom bracket, but the Eagle is well built and good for many more miles yet.
Of course, I may yet weaken, but I plan to ride ebikes for a good while. It's still great fun, and how else could I get to the pub.
I can foresee a game changer on the horizon as Tesla ramps up production of Li cell, and move away from producing the Panasonic 18650 to the Panasonic 2170.
What the Panasonic 2170 promises is more density per cell, not just by volume, but also by chemistry and of course as already stated by Elon Musk, the 2170 will be the cheapest to produce cell in the world, brought about by the volumes of scale that will be comming from the Gigafactory and soon to be European Gigafactory.
This can only mean that the go to guy for batteries is going to be Tesla, and I imagine Bosch are in that que.
I can see a Bosch branded 500wh 36v battery being available from your local ebike shop for around £199 come 2018, and none branded versions being sub £100.
There does seem to be a lot of smoke and mirrors going on with batteries and prices, a Bosch 500wh 36v 13.4ah battery retails at £700 if you do the math, based on how many cells are in a Tesla, that would make the battery pack for a Tesla work out at £70k which is more than the car costs in total, so I just don't get it, I can't be sure but I guess the Bosch battery has in order of 72 cells.
On the other hand you can buy a non branded li battery of a similiar style to the Bosch for £250, although from what I have read they only use 50 cells but claim a very similiar if not better specification than the Bosch Battery and I am not sure how that can be, in fairness though that would work out at £35k based on the Tesla battery pack, which probably could be about right.
I feel that the gravy train ride, for ebike battery manufacturers, distributors and retailers is about soon to come to an end, and there will be no more pulling down of trousers as there obviously has been.
What the Panasonic 2170 promises is more density per cell, not just by volume, but also by chemistry and of course as already stated by Elon Musk, the 2170 will be the cheapest to produce cell in the world, brought about by the volumes of scale that will be comming from the Gigafactory and soon to be European Gigafactory.
This can only mean that the go to guy for batteries is going to be Tesla, and I imagine Bosch are in that que.
I can see a Bosch branded 500wh 36v battery being available from your local ebike shop for around £199 come 2018, and none branded versions being sub £100.
There does seem to be a lot of smoke and mirrors going on with batteries and prices, a Bosch 500wh 36v 13.4ah battery retails at £700 if you do the math, based on how many cells are in a Tesla, that would make the battery pack for a Tesla work out at £70k which is more than the car costs in total, so I just don't get it, I can't be sure but I guess the Bosch battery has in order of 72 cells.
On the other hand you can buy a non branded li battery of a similiar style to the Bosch for £250, although from what I have read they only use 50 cells but claim a very similiar if not better specification than the Bosch Battery and I am not sure how that can be, in fairness though that would work out at £35k based on the Tesla battery pack, which probably could be about right.
I feel that the gravy train ride, for ebike battery manufacturers, distributors and retailers is about soon to come to an end, and there will be no more pulling down of trousers as there obviously has been.
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Hi I would dearly like to believe you are correct in this , but I am more pessimistic. The Musk factory is talking about 190 dollars per 1kwhr ex factory. When one factors in import duty, transport vat distribution markups and customisation into battery packs I can see a retail price 4 to 5 times that. Even so that might be a 50% reduction for a better product from Bosch.
Unlike other battery technologies, the raw materials used are not particularly rare, but a good recycling programme might help lower prices further.
I am newbie to all this ebike stuff, in fact I have yet to even own one.
But I guess I am right in thinking that if you have an Ebike that runs a Bosch or Yamaha motor or battery, there are no third party batteries available.
So if you require a spare battery, then you are tied to buying the branded Bosch or Yamaha battery.
Maybe there is some kind of BMS built into the Bosch and Yamaha battery, and I guess that would xplain a price premium, but not £700 surely.
Anything can be copied these day's, and I find it very odd that the likes of em3ev and Eclipse here in the UK, are not offering Bosch and Yamaha compatible batteries, surely there is a killing to be made, and I also find it even more odd that the Chinese are not doing the same.
In fact I noticed that a retailer who advertises on here, states that they will only sell you a Bosch or Yamaha battery if you have bought the bike from them!
Apart from that being wierd, why would a retailer wan't to turn away a £700 sale?
But I guess I am right in thinking that if you have an Ebike that runs a Bosch or Yamaha motor or battery, there are no third party batteries available.
So if you require a spare battery, then you are tied to buying the branded Bosch or Yamaha battery.
Maybe there is some kind of BMS built into the Bosch and Yamaha battery, and I guess that would xplain a price premium, but not £700 surely.
Anything can be copied these day's, and I find it very odd that the likes of em3ev and Eclipse here in the UK, are not offering Bosch and Yamaha compatible batteries, surely there is a killing to be made, and I also find it even more odd that the Chinese are not doing the same.
In fact I noticed that a retailer who advertises on here, states that they will only sell you a Bosch or Yamaha battery if you have bought the bike from them!
Apart from that being wierd, why would a retailer wan't to turn away a £700 sale?
In reference to the Bosch, Yes they are very expensive. Yes they have a number of BMS functions built in, .. history of number of charge cycles state of health of battery real time calculation of energy removed from battery etc. .
They also have a specific connector , different from any other on the market, probably trademarked.
I think it is likely. .. but not proven that there are interlocks preventing the controller in the motor and or the visual display engaging the power output from the battery unless it is considering authentic. If so they would also be copyrighted software. There is certainly communication between the three elements but where the intelligence is centred on distributed I do not know
Competitors will see these as anticompetitive, Bosch will see them as safety features.
Yep, I can see what is going on there from Bosch and Yamaha, although I am sure if someone put there mind to it, there could be a hack allowing the use of third party batteries.
Of course if the battery needs some kind of can message data from the motor etc, to work in a way, that it can only work with the supplied battery, this explains why the retailer I mentioned will only supply Bosch batteries to folk that bought the bike from him in the first place.
It is a plain stupid practice, and has kinda put me of buying a Bosch or Yamaha equipped bike, unless the battery prices come down to a similiar price as none branded batteries, of course the joke is that the Bosch and Yamaha batteries are probably using the same Panasonic/Samsung cells as the none branded generic batteries, OK maybe you could say that the electronics in the Bosch battery may add £50 or so, but no more than that I would say.
I am sure the same does not apply to Ebikes that cone with the intergrated Bafang Max Drive CD motor, the battery for those Ebikes looks to be stock, and any third party or generic battery could be used, I would like to think.
Let's face it if they can hack a Tesla drive train as has already been proven by Jason Hughes and co, then a Bosch battery hack would be a doddle, watch out Bosch and Yamaha is all I can say on that one.
Of course if the battery needs some kind of can message data from the motor etc, to work in a way, that it can only work with the supplied battery, this explains why the retailer I mentioned will only supply Bosch batteries to folk that bought the bike from him in the first place.
It is a plain stupid practice, and has kinda put me of buying a Bosch or Yamaha equipped bike, unless the battery prices come down to a similiar price as none branded batteries, of course the joke is that the Bosch and Yamaha batteries are probably using the same Panasonic/Samsung cells as the none branded generic batteries, OK maybe you could say that the electronics in the Bosch battery may add £50 or so, but no more than that I would say.
I am sure the same does not apply to Ebikes that cone with the intergrated Bafang Max Drive CD motor, the battery for those Ebikes looks to be stock, and any third party or generic battery could be used, I would like to think.
Let's face it if they can hack a Tesla drive train as has already been proven by Jason Hughes and co, then a Bosch battery hack would be a doddle, watch out Bosch and Yamaha is all I can say on that one.
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Most things are priced to what the market can bare.
One of my Bosch bikes almost three years old over 8500 miles still has plenty in the battery. No thoughts of needing to replace it, quality will last longer.
One of my Bosch bikes almost three years old over 8500 miles still has plenty in the battery. No thoughts of needing to replace it, quality will last longer.
It is almost a certainty that Bosch are using Panasonic or Samsung product. But are they buying them at the same price and or spec as either the retail cells or the remaindered product available from some of the no name brands. I would assume that battery cells pass through a mass production process and are then tested at output. Those which are premium sell at a premium price and those which are less good sell at lesser prices , until you get the leavings which can hold some charge and are dumped to the bargain end of the market.
The price one is paying is for assured quality and the cost of EU manufacture.
I have no doubt that the communications protocols can be hacked, but let's say that it requires the motor to ask the question what type of battery are you and it responds Bosch. Then that is copyright infringement. If anyone tries to sell such product in Europe, the Bosch lawyers are probably well paid.
It is noted that Bosch will only sell replacement motors.
The Bosch system is selling well , in. Europe and I b?believe as a premium product in the USA.... To the kind of people who might buy BMW or Audi. ( Actually I am exception not having either brand)... You know the people who buy "because I am worth it " as the add goes.
I hope your are right - battery capacity/longevity and price are the biggest weaknesses of ebikes from my point of view.
But I fear things will happen more slowly and not in the way you think.
The new cells look promising, and being based on existing technology have more of a chance of seeing the light of day than all the other promising new developments which vanished without trace.
I reckon it will take longer than a couple of years for the cells to be seen commonly in ebike battery packs.
When they do, the packs will be slightly larger capacity, maybe 600 or 700wh.
They will be sold as a premium product, possibly at a premium price.
At the very least Bosch will charge about the same and market the new battery as 'more for no more money'.
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