bank loans for replacement batteries.

[morphix]

Does it need a phased electricity supply perhaps like industrial appliances because of the amount of current needed?

Flecc has painted a rather bleak future for the e-car industry unless they can radically get those battery costs down I can't see that ever being a viable and thriving market. Hence the rush for the "holy grail" and new and better battery technology.

Perhaps then rather than try to make full-size motorcars something in between is needed, like the C1 we looked at a few days ago? Super-light and smaller batteries, but roofed and with steering wheel, and capable of car speeds. The trade-off will be limited distance I guess and that's where charge points come in.

 

[rog_london]

Not necessarily a multi-phase supply I suspect - but one capable of delivering 14 amps at 230V would recharge in 7 to 8 hours (they say) - that would be 3.3kW, just outside the rating of a 13 amp plug (3kW). Presumably as the vehicle was designed in Japan that particular peculiarity of the UK domestic supply was not considered. Obviously a 15 amp charge point in your garage wouldn't cost £800 to install - however, see below!

There's also a 'fast charge' mode which requires 440V - in other words, three phases. That's quite common in houses in certain parts of the world, though not in the UK. The main idea of the fast charge is that you could connect to a refuelling stop during your journey and do a partial recharge fairly quickly. According to what I've read, we're talking about 70kW for perhaps five to ten minutes! There are fast-charge outlets, at least in theory, which would provide such power levels.

Rog.

 

[flecc]

How does it cost £800 flecc ?

I thought they just plugged into your electric supply with a electric hook up type socket ?

Cant you just fit a charging socket on your outside wall like we do with Motorhomes ?
They are weatherproof and dont need to be in a garage.

Lynda

As others have said Lynda, the supply needs exceed our 13 amp norm and there is a fast charge mode. The £800 is for the Renault charging station installed, which is necessary for the Fluence saloon, Zoe hatchback and e-Kangoo van. The little Twizy doesn't need the charging station, it can charge from a household point.

Despite all the Nissan Leaf publicity, I suspect Nissan owners Renault have done most of the design of all their e-cars since they've long been into this area. They are also behind the swappable battery Israeli e-car scheme.
.

 

[flecc]

Perhaps then rather than try to make full-size motorcars something in between is needed, like the C1 we looked at a few days ago? Super-light and smaller batteries, but roofed and with steering wheel, and capable of car speeds. The trade-off will be limited distance I guess and that's where charge points come in.

The Renault Twizy fits for one or two people and I seriously considered it, but again there are problems. It cannot have doors due to condensation and misting problems in a small space, so it only has half height doors on the better version. That means absolutely no street security against vandalism etc and a need for off-street home parking which many in towns and cities don't have.

It does have an electric demister for the windscreen and a wiper, but associated with that is another problem with all these e-cars. Would you like to live without a heater in the British winter? The larger ones do have one, but with the Nissan Leaf's actual range being about 70 miles, using a heater all the time could almost halve that and that's just not acceptable for a £31,000 car.

 

[funkylyn]

Ah...of course...they are not charging a leisure battery but the car battery.....why on earth didnt they make it simpler.....just slightly less current draw ?
They will never take off properly until the range is better, not everyone lives/works/socialises only in a city.
same with bikes as said.....battery price MUST come down for them to gain more universal acceptance.

Lynda

 

[Kudoscycles]

Morphix....firstly I have at this time no intention of producing pattern copies of the competitors batteries but unless the manufacturer has sought patent applied for the design is covered by unregistered design rights see below.
The other main exclusions from UK unregistered Design Right protection are the so-called ‘must fit’ (features which enable the article to be connected to another article with which it interrelates) and ‘must match’ (features which are dependent upon the appearance of another article of which the design article is intended to be an integral part) exclusions. These exclusions are intended to allow third parties to manufacture spare parts for articles without infringement. The ‘must match’ exclusion also applies to Community unregistered Design Rights and both UK & Community Registered Design Rights. (There is no equivalent to the ‘must fit’ exclusion, since these features, being dictated solely by function, are not protected by these rights in any case).
This 'must match' exclusion has been tested widely in the courts....particularly auto body panels,brake discs,brake pads etc ......one of the biggest auto manufacturers took one of the auto body panel cloners to court and lost.....
At the moment no Asian battery manufacturer is likely to clone OEM's batteries,the volumes just don't justify the tooling and they are about to get very busy replacing the banned SLA batteries with Lithium in so many chinese cities.
But this,whilst interesting,is a distraction....still the lion's share of the e-bike industry is hub drive and at some point a particular battery shape/type/size will become popular,that style will become more widely available and the prices will become more competitive.
Dave
KudosCycles

 

[Kudoscycles]

I make that about £1.77 million per car

£188m boost for Nissan LEAF plant in Sunderland

Green investment news - by GreenWise staff

11th November 2011

A €220 million (£188 million) investment has been secured from the European Investment Bank (EIB) for the manufacturer of the Nissan LEAF electric car in Sunderland.

The EIB investment, which was earmarked last year, was officially signed over this week at Nissan’s Sunderland plant where production of the LEAF is due to begin in 2013. It will also go towards Nissan’s new lithium-ion battery plant in the North East, which will begin production early next year.

"New Nissan investment to produce the Nissan LEAF model demonstrates the commercial emergence of electric vehicles from research intensive concept cars," Simon Brooks, EIB vice president for the UK, said. "The European Investment Bank is committed to supporting competitive electric vehicle and battery technology that can contribute to improving air quality and tackling climate change."

The EIB investment is in addition to a £420 million investment by Nissan in its Sunderland plant and £20.7 million by the UK Government. The total investment will maintain about 2,250 jobs at Nissan and across the UK supply chain.


"The Nissan LEAF has already made history as the world’s first affordable, mass-market, pure-electric vehicle and we are all very excited about battery and LEAF production beginning at Sunderland for our European market," Trevor Mann, Nissan Europe senior vice president for Manufacturing, said.

LEAF production

Nissan plans to initially produce around 50,000 LEAFs a year in the UK, making Britain the third global manufacturing location for Nissan electric vehicles, after Japan and the US.


However, the uptake of electric vehicles has been slower in the UK than had been hoped. Despite a £5,000 Government green car grant, only 106 electric cars were bought in the third quarter of 2011.

I make that £1.77 million per car....never let governments make investment decisions,I wonder how long that Sunderland plant will survive?

Dave
KudosCycles

 

[flecc]

Yes, the Leaf sales have been disastrous from the start, as have all e-car sales. The Sunderland main plant is safe since it makes the most popular Nissans which share Renault parts and engines, but they will have to change their plans for mass production there of the Leaf/Fluence/Zoe batteries, the sales cannot justify the scale planned for it.

Even if by some miracle batteries did get much cheaper, I still think these essentially urban e-cars would have major problems in the market place. Having to have home charging entails a garage or car port which most city and many town residences just don't have, and one cannot guarantee parking outside one's property either.

And when I drove to my local supermarket yesterday, I really appreciated the flow of warmth from the heater appearing within minutes, something an e-car just cannot provide due to the limited battery power available. Our present cars are just far too good and inexpensive for e-cars to have a chance of competing.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Flecc....my thoughts is that these cars need to be hybrid-small diesel plus electric....I think the range should be less,say 30 miles or maybe only 20 with cd player,elec windows,heater etc....that way it will require less batteries,quicker charge,be cheaper but the diesel engine comes in automatically when the batteries reach a low level.Most of us use cars for only short journeys so the electric will be used a lot. One of my guys at work has the Peugeot 207 with baby diesel,he gets 70-80 mpg without trying. But the duel fuel takes away the big problem of electric vehicles-the anxiety of running out-Clarkson's antics of pushing the Leaf around Lincoln put off most people and especially women from driving an all electric vehicle.
Does anyone make a 207 size car with baby diesel + electric,price needs to be about £10-12k?
Dave
KudosCycles

 

[morphix]

Flecc....my thoughts is that these cars need to be hybrid-small diesel plus electric....I think the range should be less,say 30 miles or maybe only 20 with cd player,elec windows,heater etc....that way it will require less batteries,quicker charge,be cheaper but the diesel engine comes in automatically when the batteries reach a low level.Most of us use cars for only short journeys so the electric will be used a lot. One of my guys at work has the Peugeot 207 with baby diesel,he gets 70-80 mpg without trying. But the duel fuel takes away the big problem of electric vehicles-the anxiety of running out-Clarkson's antics of pushing the Leaf around Lincoln put off most people and especially women from driving an all electric vehicle.
Does anyone make a 207 size car with baby diesel + electric,price needs to be about £10-12k?
Dave
KudosCycles

Hybrid seems a logical compromise or gap-filler, until such time as battery technologically radically improves... unless a new smaller type e-car emerges, leaner and fitter than the big e-cars they are proposing now..but I can't see those taking off mainstream..

 

[Kudoscycles]

Looks like VW and Volvo are both working on diesel+electric hybrids

But that of course is later, for now Volkswagen VW plans to debut a Beetle with a hybrid powertrain and a new exterior design at the 2011 Detroit Auto Show. The car’s specs should be similar to the New Compact Coupe (NCC) that VW revealed last year. That vehicle carried a 1.4-liter TSI inline-four cylinder engine, a 20-kilowatt electric motor and a lithium-ion battery pack. All in all, it packed 177 horsepower and 110 pounds of torque, while averaging about 45 miles-per-gallon – not bad for a car most people want to cuddle
To my eyes it looks quite attractive.
Dave
KudosCycles

 

[flecc]

Not diesel at present Dave, but there are smaller hybrids around using different operational methods.

There's the Chinese BYD car, pre-charged electric for up to 80 miles claimed, after which the small petrol engine takes over for longer journeys and also puts in some charge. So it's an electric town car/local commuter and a petrol longer distance one, obviating the need for two cars. Photo here. They have been disappointed with their sales too and there are rumours of battery problems.

Toyota have transferred their so called hybrid technology from the Prius onto an Auris compact model, again petrol-electric, but working differently from the BYD of course, continuously switching between the two sources. They have been intending to make the Prius into a pre-charged car to make it a true hybrid, but the battery is too small to give much initial range.

Thats just about it for compact hybrids. Note they are petrol not diesel. I think there is a problem in running a diesel from cold or cooled down frequently as it would have to in a hybrid, it's then that the noise is most objectionable as I note in the mornings when my parsimonious neighbours fire up their clattering engines.

N.B. Crossed with Dave's post.
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

flecc....I don't think the drive should be constantly changing....the default setting should be electric,then changing to diesel when low on charge,only back to diesel after substantial recharge....maybe a manual overide to diesel if wishing to save the electric power.
I also cannot understand why these vehicles have to all look so slabsided....what is wrong with a hybrid option on a Peugeot 207 or VW Polo? Nice photo by the way!
Dave
KudosCycles

 

[banbury frank]

Hi

The Toyota Prius is sold in large volumes in The US most states in the US diesel in cars is not allowed they also add larger battery's making the battery range longer

Toyota tried to stop this but failed

Plug-In Prius Conversion - MSN Autos


Software Upgrade to Prius Conversion Kit Enables 70-mph All-Electric Driving - AutoObserver

Plug-In Conversions for Hybrids

they also offer to re manufacture the old standard battery for a very low cost

Frank

 

[themutiny]

There's hybrid Yaris and IQ on the way

 

[lemmy]

If the car e-car market did take off, where would we get the power to charge them?

We simply do not have the spare capacity to service several million electric cars and since we do not wish to have nuclear power, we are unlikely to have it in the future.

In fuel terms, I regularly run my Peugeot 207 diesel to the south of France and back with air conditioning and heating on, radio, sat nav, wipers when necessary, often with my a computer charging up from the power socket etc. The 207, a far from special car, averages 58mpg (corrected for 3% of flattery on the trip computer) on the journey with 2 people, suitcases, cameras, Brompton on board. This, unlike an e-car, is the same whatever the ambient temperature.

There is no electric car made or even envisaged that can even approach this performance in either ability or economy. The whole idea of electric cars as currently planned is ridiculous. Where one is more practical, if not useful, is for town use. I would therefore need to own 2 vehicles. How anyone could consider that green, especially with several hundreds of kilos of landfill produced by every e-vehicle each four or five years, I cannot imagine. Only politicians!

It seems to me that e-bikes are about the only practical use for e-transport but even that must be in question when it is necessary to think of bank loans or saving money for replacement batteries. Most people who would be willing to try a bicycle would baulk at that idea. They are are looking to save money, not take on a liability.

The running costs, that is, battery costs are the reason that -bikes of all kinds will remain a niche product in my view. Having said that, I would be happy to be proved wrong. Proof for me would be when e-bike sales comprise 30% or more of overall bicycle sales.

 

[flecc]

flecc....I don't think the drive should be constantly changing....the default setting should be electric,then changing to diesel when low on charge,only back to diesel after substantial recharge....maybe a manual overide to diesel if wishing to save the electric power.
I also cannot understand why these vehicles have to all look so slabsided....what is wrong with a hybrid option on a Peugeot 207 or VW Polo? Nice photo by the way!
Dave
KudosCycles

I agree Dave, the Chevrolet Volt and BYD cars have got it right, primary pre-charged electric until it runs out and only then the fossil fuel taking over. That way the great majority of all car journeys would be electric with only the odd long runs starting the i.c. engine.

That slab sided look of the Volt and BYD is unfortunately necessary. To have large enough LiFePO4 batteries for a decent range, the entire centre console is like a long slim coffin full of battery. That makes them 4 rather than 5 seaters and the console width with seats either side means the slab side is necessary to constrain the car width. As it is the Volt is still a very wide car.

The little Twizy town runabout does manage to have it's batteries in the floor, e-scooter fashion, but it's only 60 miles claimed range and realistically as the batteries age, down to about 35 miles for many. It's £7000 odd is OK, but it's batteries are £40 a month for three year, 4500 miles per annum agreements.

Overall I agree with Lemmy and the gloomy costs you illustrated, e-cars are a dead duck, the politicians too silly or ill-informed to realise it. Their costs will join those of our forthcoming plane-less aircraft carriers, planned replacement Trident submarines with no targets and cold-war Eurofighters as useless status objects. Political bling.

 

[banbury frank]

Hi FACT oil is running out 3to 5 years peak production £ 10 + gallon soon

Big engine cars dumped on the side off road as £300 + to fill tank

Nuclear Power on its way No need for planing permission or a public inquiry on existing power station sites jut build

The Government Changed the planing laws



Frank

 

[flecc]

Sorry Frank, but that's rubbish. I've been listening to these peak oil messages for over 50 years and they are meaningless. Even if peak oil has been passed, production doesn't drop off a cliff, it very slowly starts to reduce. And no-one knows how much there is anyway. In the 1960s oil came from the Middle East and nearly all the fields we've used since and now didn't even exist back then. Why do you think we've just fought in Libya? It was for the huge oil reserves in their south, likewise our adventures in Iraq and protection for Kuwait, and we hang on to the Falklands for the good chance of southern ocean oil.

And as for £10 a gallon, that's the same nonsense as the present £6.30 we pay. In fact petrol in the UK today costs just under £1.90 a gallon, the rest is tax to the exchequer.
.

 

[lemmy]

In fact petrol in the UK today costs just over £2 a gallon, the rest is tax to the exchequer.

Which is why, when the price of oil drops, everyone complains that the price at the pump hardly changes.

As one Arab Sheikh pointed out, if you want cheaper petrol, speak to your government, not us or the oil companies.

A gallon of fuel was 38.7p in 1973 which corrected for inflation, is £4.02 today. That £4.02 figure breaks down to £2.34 tax, £1.93 fuel.

Today, at £6.50, £3.74 is taxes, thus £2.76 is fuel. The fuel price includes refining, retailer profit and all that, of course.

So the price of fuel in real terms has risen over 24 years from £1.93 to £2.76, or by 43%. The taxation on it has risen from 58% of the total in 1973 to 73% today.

For comparison, gold was $100 per oz in 1973, today it is $1500, wheat $320, now $650. Far from being in any sort of supply crisis, oil appears to be more stable in supply and price than most other commodities.

In fact, in the long term, a bicycle with a small, highly developed and specialized IC engine designed to replace the battery electric power plant might be no noisier or more polluting than the expensive and non-recyclable lithium monsters we are using now as power packs. It would almost certainly be cheaper on a pence per mile basis.