Are Rim Brakes Rubbish?

[tillson]

Is it just me that finds rim brakes incredibly difficult to set up? It seems like everything that I tweak has an adverse influence on something else, and I end up going around in endless circles chasing an elusive balanced brake setup.

I have just spent nearly three hours setting up the rim brakes on my bike. They are OK ish, but I’m not 100% happy. After much adjusting, I finally had the brake pads evenly centered whilst on the work stand, but after only a short test ride, they are now off centre and I have had to back off the adjuster to stop one of the pads skimming the wheel rim. Thinking that the wheel had somehow, “resettled” I messed about with the brakes for another 30 minutes and re-centered them, only to find them off centre the other way after a short ride.

I have Magura brakes and these are a delight to set up in comparison to cable brakes, but even these are very frustrating.

All of this leads me to the conclusion that rim brakes are simply a very bad idea spawned straight out of the Devil’s bottom and that the man who invented them should relive his moment of inspiration in absolute shame, for eternity. Is this too harsh?

I am starting to come round to the idea that hydraulic disk brakes may be better option. I have no experience of these types of brake on a bike. Are they any easier / more difficult to set up?

 

[indalo]

Having no experience of Magura hydraulic brakes, I really can't comment on their effectiveness but regular cable-operated rim brakes are very effective on my Dawes touring bike. The discs fitted to my MTBs are also very strong and both rim & disc are much better than the internal hub brakes on my electric bike.

Although the Shimano hub brakes work adequately and remain consistent in use, in an emergency, I'm sure the other types would bring a bike to a stop quicker. Wheel lock-up can occur with stronger brakes and that can obviously cause a different type of problem. I've never managed to lock a wheel on my electric bike under braking but maybe I just don't ride fast enough to necessitate very heavy application of the anchors?

The only time I ever had a problem setting up rim brakes was on a bike with an out-of-true wheel but you've probably checked that.

Regards,
Indalo

 

[Kudoscycles]

We have over 20 bikes on test with various brakes. My conclusions are that rim brakes work well with cable operation provided that no rim damage or mud adheres to the rim-so rim brakes are probably best on urban bikes not taken off road.
However the cheap disc brakes with cable operation seem to constantly stretch the cables-the Shimano rep at a trade show showed me a rig that demonstrated the lack of stretch on the Shimano cables relative to the cheaper alternatives. Cheap disc brakes seemed to be poorer performance than the equivalent priced V brakes.
But the hydraulic operation disc brakes work superbly and the feel and modulation is excellent-we used Tektro.
So in conclusion we have selected Promax V brakes(front) with Shimano V brakes or Shimano roller(rear)for urban usage and Tektro hydraulic/disc for performance/off road usage.
Dave Elderfield
Kudos Cycles

 

[tillson]

I have no problem with the rim brake's effectiveness, I think that I could easily put myself over the handlebars. They are very powerful. It's just that they are such a difficult thing to set up.

I think I'm a bit of a perfectionist, so I might be overly critical.

 

[flecc]

When it's difficult to achieve equal spacing on cable operated rim brakes, the usual problem is overtightening of the spring adjusting grub screws. This leads to the overtensioned spring halves fighting each other.

Back off both the screws and start again, using the principle "Less is more".

You need just enough tension each side to hold that side correctly in place, no more, and the sides should not be in high tension conflict.
.

 

[Scimitar]

When it's difficult to achieve equal spacing on cable operated rim brakes, the usual problem is overtightening of the spring adjusting grub screws. This leads to the overtensioned spring halves fighting each other.

Back off both the screws and start again, using the principle "Less is more".

You need just enough tension each side to hold that side correctly in place, no more, and the sides should not be in high tension conflict.
.

Exactly what I found when I recently fitted my first set of V-brakes. I over-adjusted them at first, then discovered things went better if I started from scratch and only did what was needed. They work fine, now.

 

[NRG]

I'm with you tillson, been through the hoops and jumped the jumps to get my V / Rim brakes to work properly. Conclusion is yes they can be a pain, but the better quality ones like Avid make things better and the Magura are even better stuck callipers not withstanding . The centre pull ones on my Peugeot are better and more consistent than any V brake I've yet come across though....

 

[Caph]

In my experience there is a world of difference between disk and rim brakes and as you have rightly pointed out it is not just about stopping ability. With dual adjusted disk brakes it is simply a case of dialling in the correct number of clicks on both inner and outer dials.

Put it this way, I've got Jagwire rim brakes on my Alien GS1 and BB7s on my Galileo. The rim brakes will stop me in an emergency situation but my disk brakes feel much more solid, are much easier to adjust, and allow me to slip out the wheel with no hinderence. Once you've experienced disk brakes, you won't want to go back.

My only advice would be to check out online reviews before you make a choice. Avid's have great reviews, Tektro often gets slated. I'll leave it up to you to make your own choice.

Oh, and as for choosing hydraulics over mechanical, I think you're barking up the wrong tree. There have been some problems reported on this forum with mechanical disk brakes, but I think this was more to do with using cheap disk brakes rather than the fact that they were mechanical. Hydraulics are more hassle for not much more bang for buck as long as you buy quality.

 

[kitchenman]

I've never managed to lock a wheel on my electric bike under braking but maybe I just don't ride fast enough to necessitate very heavy application of the anchors?

On my route to work I have a hill that helps me to achieve 40 mph but requires a quick stop as its got a cross roads at the bottom. My V brakes stop me and I have full confidence in them. No, they are not rubbish. If they become rubbish then a pound to a penny it will be because I have done something very silly again usually involving a allen key and a pliers!

 

[Oxygen Bicycles]

Is it just me that finds rim brakes incredibly difficult to set up? It seems like everything that I tweak has an adverse influence on something else, and I end up going around in endless circles chasing an elusive balanced brake setup.

I have just spent nearly three hours setting up the rim brakes on my bike. They are OK ish, but I’m not 100% happy. After much adjusting, I finally had the brake pads evenly centered whilst on the work stand, but after only a short test ride, they are now off centre and I have had to back off the adjuster to stop one of the pads skimming the wheel rim. Thinking that the wheel had somehow, “resettled” I messed about with the brakes for another 30 minutes and re-centered them, only to find them off centre the other way after a short ride.

I have Magura brakes and these are a delight to set up in comparison to cable brakes, but even these are very frustrating.

All of this leads me to the conclusion that rim brakes are simply a very bad idea spawned straight out of the Devil’s bottom and that the man who invented them should relive his moment of inspiration in absolute shame, for eternity. Is this too harsh?

I am starting to come round to the idea that hydraulic disk brakes may be better option. I have no experience of these types of brake on a bike. Are they any easier / more difficult to set up?

At the time of my youth when I was still racing there was no disc brakes, V-brakes and cantilever were the only choice (Magura HS33 were there too) and it was a pleasure for me to use them except of a few brands. Those that could recommend are: Shimano, Avid. Those with less pleasant experience were Tektro's

On the Shimano and Avid set up was very easy and never caused of any problems really except maybe pads on Shimano wearing the rims very quickly.

All the best

Andrew

 

[flecc]

We never had any trouble with uneven contact on stirrup brakes acting on the inside of shallow V section steel rims, and they meant wheels had to be perfectly built before delivery to the customer, not like today's approximately circular ones.

That was the 1950s and before of course, such is progress!
.

 

[wharfitude]

I agree with those who've stood up for rim brakes. They're not perfect but probably as good as anything else. One thing I notice with V brakes is that they're often set up to bite as soon as you operate the lever. This isn't necessary in my view - in fact the old wisdom used to be that with brakes full on the lever should be almost touching the bars. If set up a bit less fiercely they're just as efficient but you get more clearance between pad and rim, so less chance of rubbing. Plus it's easier to disconnect the cable for wheel removal.

I worry about disc brakes. I'm sure they're excellent, but all that braking force is getting to your tyres by way of the spokes. The forces must be well in excess of the maximum you can produce in acceleration. It's fine when the bike is shiny and new, but will ten year old spokes fail suddenly under heavy braking? Anyway if the object of the exercise is a weatherproof brake well away from the mud, I'd prefer hub brakes. I've got fifteen year old Sachs hub brakes on an old roadster and they've never needed adjusting.

And live in peace with noisy brakes. After all noise is a form of energy, as Pete Townsend's eardrums will testify, and if some of your kinetic energy is being converted to noise it stands to reason that the brakes will be getting less hot as a result. Not a lot, but every little helps!

 

[tillson]

One thing I notice with V brakes is that they're often set up to bite as soon as you operate the lever. This isn't necessary in my view

This may be where I am going wrong. I'm chasing a setup where the brakes start to come on after minimal travel of the brake lever.

I worry about disc brakes. I'm sure they're excellent, but all that braking force is getting to your tyres by way of the spokes. The forces must be well in excess of the maximum you can produce in acceleration.

I'm sure that the more reputable manufacturers include these additional forces in their considerations when designing a wheel. However, the same thought has crossed my mind.

 

[Straylight]

I find with my rim brakes that the state of the rim has a great impact on both the noise and general effectiveness. When both get really bad, I clean the rims with meths, then smooth out any stubborn bits of rubber/damage from stones etc. with fine emery paper. I then give them another go with the meths for good measure. As the high quality Mavic rims on my old bike have a virtual mirror finish, I believe this is the way to go.

I've also just ordered a pair of brake boosters to hopefully eliminate the last of the squeal.

On top of this, I think its worth periodically adjusting the spokes to keep them true. I don't use a proper jig for this, I just tighten the brakes to a point where they start rubbing to find the subtle inconsistencies. Of course balancing the brakes before this helps guard against accidentally altering the dish, particularly on the back wheel.

 

[Scottyf]

If I was to upgrade from V brakes it would be to Mechanical disks.
I think hydrolic brakes are a setup to far and what is effectivly a light bike. (Its not exactly a motor bike).

However I always thought if you have front suspension and V brakes it puts alot more stress on the forks. Where as disk's will not be effected from the weather or crap on the rim and thus less hassle.

Sides I'd rather have a spoke fail than a fork fail. Still contemplating putting a better set of commuter forks on my basic cromoloy odesa forks.

Either wy from my childhood its nice to see such improvements on push bikes (Although been around on other vehicles for years).


Saying that I never understood why the v brakes where in front of the forks when you'd get less leverage if it was mounted behind the fork. But I guess its becasue push bike forks all have drop outs and mounting it behond the fork would sent alot of force down and out of the drop outs.

 

[NRG]

The Magura HS33 hydraulic on my PCS are mounted behind the front forks and are truly wonderful to use...

 

[kitchenman]

I've also just ordered a pair of brake boosters to hopefully eliminate the last of the squeal.

What are these? Seems odd. I mean, if your breaks are set up correctly and the ones intended for your bike then why would you need brake boosters ... or is this because you have added weight due to the addition of your kit or some other heavy stuff? ....

 

[NRG]

I posted this on another thread, just fitted boosters to my Alien GSII (along with Avid 20R pads and Digit 5 arms) they improve the feel and control of the brake by stopping the flex in the V brake mounting lugs. Without them there is noticable flex in the mounting points on the Alien and under braking the force of the wheel rotating forward tries to rotate the pads about the vertical axis flexing the lugs even more.

The booster reduces this flex and movement greatly improving the brakes. Also I've found the pads easier to set up as well as there is little to no movement. These are the ones I fitted:

Brand-X Alloy V-Brake Booster | Buy Online | ChainReactionCycles.com

 

[flecc]

The Magura HS33 hydraulic on my PCS are mounted behind the front forks and are truly wonderful to use...

The right position for front rim brakes to be for maximum effectiveness!

Just because the century old rod operated brakes had to be on the front of the fork for around fifty years, all subsequent types have slavishly followed that with no justification.

It's praiseworthy that Derby Cycles have done the sensible thing on most models of the Kalkhoff and similar bikes, something I remarked on in the introductory review of the Agattu. Only on the smallest frame versions has there been insufficient room to have rear of fork brakes.
.

 

[Straylight]

Thanks for the explanation NRG, it was after seeing your post that I ordered mine, until then I didn't know such things existed. I've always had a certain amount of high frequency brake vibration, no matter what the set up (and I've fiddled with them A LOT). Maintaining the rims as I mentioned earlier helps a great deal, but not completely - which led me to think that perhaps something else was going on.

Even with identical brake calipers, my electric has never felt anything like my Marin in terms of brake control, so hopefully this will fix thing so I don't have to mess around with them so much. On the subject of weight, the wisper has more mass, so the braking forces will be greater, so perhaps a bit of reinforcement will help overall.