Another mid motor announced

[flecc]

Accell Group, Europe's largest cycle and e-bike manufacturing group announce new ION drives. Their confident forecast of a small decline in hub motors and very large increase in crank drive mid motors is interesting:

News here
.

 

[Eaglerider]

Hmmm, I see they make reference to front hub motors but no mention of rear hubs, which are my favourite.

I would hesitate to accept their findings, I would suggest, certainly for the elder ab-initio e-cyclists, that hub drives will remain popular as they are less demanding on the rider. I'm not convinced that crank drives are the panacea for us all.

What's special about the Ion Drive then? Is it the same as a Panasonic/Bosch type or something totally different?

 

[flecc]

ION is the name they gave to their direct drive motor fitted to Sparta and Koga pedelecs. That's rear wheel mounted, completely silent but initially had very poor torque at 20Nm. That was later upped to 30Nm, so not a powerful option but very civilised and ideal for the flat Dutch market and other not too demanding areas.

ION doesn't have any real meaning in this context, I'd guess it just means they will aim for refinement once again in the new crank drive.

As for their forecast on mid motor growth, I see it as a response to the success of Bosch and others, plus China joining in with several new crank drives, including from hub motor makers like SB.

Don't bet against them being right, Accell are huge, owning many of the world's cycle brands, and their rival group, Pon Holdings, are deeply into crank drives through owning Derby Cycles (Kalkhoff etc) and a number of other brands.

Together with the new Chinese crank drive makers, their dominance can push the market direction.

 

[james@justebikes.co.uk]

ION is the name they gave to their direct drive motor fitted to Sparta and Koga pedelecs. That's rear wheel mounted, completely silent but initially had very poor torque at 20Nm. That was later upped to 30Nm, so not a powerful option but very civilised and ideal for the flat Dutch market and other not too demanding areas.

ION doesn't have any real meaning in this context, I'd guess it just means they will aim for refinement once again in the new crank drive.

As for their forecast on mid motor growth, I see it as a response to the success of Bosch and others, plus China joining in with several new crank drives, including from hub motor makers like SB.

Don't bet against them being right, Accell are huge, owning many of the world's cycle brands, and their rival group, Pon Holdings, are deeply into crank drives through owning Derby Cycles (Kalkhoff etc) and a number of other brands.

Together with the new Chinese crank drive makers, their dominance can push the market direction.

Flecc the Sparta plan as I understand it is for a crank drive system like no other; one built around their current silent high torque (40Nm) low speed ION hub motors that have just one moving part. This is welcome news for lots of reasons, chief among them being a possible escape route from existing crank drive technology with all their bits thrashing about, whining, and wearing out inside.
The downside will be absence of KERS. In stop/start London traffic Sparta owners report this gives a 33% increase in range. For most old Spartas all the owner needs is a (free) software update to add KERS.

Rgds, James

 

[flecc]

Thanks for the information James. I've no doubt it will be an attractive product, given the very high quality of pedelecs bearing the Sparta name.

 

[tillson]

This is welcome news for lots of reasons, chief among them being a possible escape route from existing crank drive technology with all their bits thrashing about, whining, and wearing out inside.

Exactly which crank drive systems are wearing out with all of their bits whining and thrashing around? Have any Panasonic, Bosch or Impulse drive owners noticed this? I haven't noticed it on my Panasonic drive. How widespread is this problem? Are the manufacturers aware and are they doing anything about it?

 

[trex]

...
The downside will be absence of KERS. In stop/start London traffic Sparta owners report this gives a 33% increase in range. For most old Spartas all the owner needs is a (free) software update to add KERS.

40NM direct drive unit is not enough to compete even against Chinese crank drives, they manage 60NM plus.
Regen is a hassle and also, your reported 33% increase in range is too optimistic.

 

[james@justebikes.co.uk]

40NM direct drive unit is not enough to compete even against Chinese crank drives, they manage 60NM plus.
Regen is a hassle and also, your reported 33% increase in range is too optimistic.

Hi Trex, which model did you try?

 

[james@justebikes.co.uk]

Thanks for the information James. I've no doubt it will be an attractive product, given the very high quality of pedelecs bearing the Sparta name.

Flecc how do I PM you?

 

[flecc]

Flecc how do I PM you?

That's one of life's mysteries for me too James, I've only found the conversation route so far!

Meanwhile, email me if you wish on tinyworld@flecc.co.uk

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I've only found the conversation route so far!

Conversation is the same as PM, except now you can choose to have three, four or more people involved.

 

[flecc]

Conversation is the same as PM, except now you can choose to have three, four or more people involved.

Thanks Dave, I had a suspicion that was the case but unsure since so many still say "PM".

James had already been in touch via "Conversations".

 

[tillson]

This is welcome news for lots of reasons, chief among them being a possible escape route from existing crank drive technology with all their bits thrashing about, whining, and wearing out inside.

I'm still concerned about which crank drives are affected by the internal mechanism, thrashing and wearing out, phenomenon.

I asked a few questions about this earlier in the thread James, would you answer them please and put my mind at rest? In case you missed my post, here it is again;

"Exactly which crank drive systems are wearing out with all of their bits whining and thrashing around? Have any Panasonic, Bosch or Impulse drive owners noticed this? I haven't noticed it on my Panasonic drive. How widespread is this problem? Are the manufacturers aware and are they doing anything about it?"

Thanks

 

[flecc]

40NM direct drive unit is not enough to compete even against Chinese crank drives, they manage 60NM plus.

The torque of the motor at the crank will be multiplied by the bike's gear system of course, so if 40Nm at the chainwheel DD motor output, that could be greatly increased.

Biketec of Switzerland made a similar crank drive based on a DD motor some years ago, the Flyer F model. Very much a premium product of course.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

It's never clear which torque they're taking about with crank drives. They never say. Of course the torque at the back wheel is different in each gear, and even in bottom gear, the torque at the wheel would be less than at the crank until Bosch came out with their new motor with the small chainwheel. Now it's impossible to compare. The new Bosch motor makes about half the torque at the crank compared with the old one.

 

[hech]

The lovely and ellegent solution the bosch, panasonic and bafang drives have engineered lies in the comparitively minute size and weight. The copper mass is similar to a 24v hand held drill and yet they can achieve such considerable low speed torque. Units like the aprillia, tonaro, cyclone etc are twice the size and weight and the slow running hub motors often many times more.

 

[mike killay]

Well, I am not fussed.
My Tonaro is now 3 years old and still going strong. It is virtually silent. No thrashing or whining at all. It does the job really well.
My Woosh Gale, a hub motored folder is similarly excellent and does all that I ask of it.
The real weakness of crank drivers is that they use bicycle gear components and the smaller cogs and narrow chains are not up to the job.
Crank drivers only need about 4 well spaced gears and it would be advantageous if they used the old 'Tradesman' size of cog and chain.

 

[Geebee]

Speak for your self even when healthy I use every one of the 8 gears on my Tonaro and would like another lower one added for steep off road, but I need the current top gearing as well for road use.
But then my Esprit uses a single speed chain so no issues chain wise.

 

[tillson]

Well, I am not fussed.
My Tonaro is now 3 years old and still going strong. It is virtually silent. No thrashing or whining at all. It does the job really well.
My Woosh Gale, a hub motored folder is similarly excellent and does all that I ask of it.
The real weakness of crank drivers is that they use bicycle gear components and the smaller cogs and narrow chains are not up to the job.
Crank drivers only need about 4 well spaced gears and it would be advantageous if they used the old 'Tradesman' size of cog and chain.

Well that's the Tonaro drive eliminated from the, thrashing, whining and wearing out problem. I think I'm correct in saying that my 16000 mile 5 1/2 year old Panasonic is OK.

I wonder where James has gone to? He was quite active in this thread until I asked him a few questions. He seems to have disappeared now. How strange.

 

[hech]

Quite right Mike Killay , Prince of Denmark at 36v, it's when you start pushing the power output above 750 w that problems with drivetrain kick in. I love everything Ive heard so far about this new wee Bafang unit.