Agattu -Another set of questions?

[andyh2]

I'm after some Agattu measurements if anyone could help;

Axle to crown

Effective top tube length for S,M, L, XL frames

And am I correct in thinking that the Agattu runs an 1/8 chain, rather than 3/32?

And is the chainring and chainset a standard item or something particular to the panasonic unit?

Thanks

Andy

 

[flecc]

I think you'll need to check the tube length with 50cycles when the crossbar versions arrive Andy.

I believe it is 1/8" chain, normal on hub gear bikes, but I could be wrong, The 1/8" will run ok though.

The chainwheel is completely non-standard, unique to the Panasonic unit and has a splined centre with separate crank. You can see a similar chainwheel here on the earlier unit:

The chainwheel is 41 tooth with no alternatives, but if the splines are the same as the earlier unit, that was fitted with a 37 tooth which could give one option.
.

 

[andyh2]

Thanks for that Flecc.

So I guess those chainwheels are long lasting, but are they easily available when they do need replacing.

I don't suppose an 8 speed chain would fit that chainwheel and drive wheel would they.

 

[flecc]

Yes it would Andy. On the old model, some have added derailleurs with the Xtracycle attachment which uses a one piece chain, so eight speed chain will be ok. As said, I'm not certain of the standard chain size, it could be 3/32".

I've never heard of the chainwheel wearing out, only the small motor sprocket, but spares should be available anyway. There are currently six makes of biikes in Europe using these motor units, so we shouldn't run out of consumables sources.
.

 

[andyh2]

It's for an Xtracycle conversion that the chain size is relevent.

I was going to go for a Surly Big Dummy and eventually one of the stoke monkey assist units when they're available. But BD now won't be available here until Sep. The Stoke monkey assist will fit a 'standard' Xtracycle conversion but I reckon it'll be £1,150 + shipping from US by the time duty and VAT are factored in and the design is assist up to 20mph which wouldn't be legal here though that could be got around.

Taking the cost into account and UK based support available a Kalkhoff Xtracycle starts to look a better option. Though of course the panasonic couldn't be transferred to a BD in the future.

The Xtracycle can take 700c wheels, but tyre width is limited to 35mm and the version I've got will take disc or 26" V brakes. So I can
Get the nexus hub built into 26" wheel and use V brake
Get a new nexus hub built into 26" wheel and use disc or V brake and keep Kalkhoff wheel in case I ever want to sell.
Use 26" disc wheel I've already got with a derailleur which in turn means 3/32 chain becomes neccessary.
With the nexus options I'd be looking to use chain tensioner to minimise chain adjustment faff.

With a 2.3 Big Apple 26" tyre the diameter will be very close to std 700 / 40 set up which means it shouldn't compromise handling.

And just to complicate matters I've just finished building up my recycled long wheel base recumbent which would be absolutely wonderful with a bit of assist for hill climbing!

 

[Erik]

.... There are currently six makes of biikes in Europe using these motor units, so we shouldn't run out of consumables sources.
.

If you count who's really making them, isn't it just 3 or 4 ?

Derby: Kalkhoff, Raleigh, Rixe and ?

Gazelle

Swissbee

Some Finnish company.

How come it's easy to get stuff from China, but hard from Japan?

One of the japanese webshops I found when googling for an Agattu battery could make a nice extra profit supplying European customers through an Ebay shop.

 

[andyh2]

A 4th option is to run 26" singlespeed, but one of the significant pluses of the kalkhoff is that it drives throught the gears.

 

[mk1]

It's for an Xtracycle conversion that the chain size is relevent.

I was going to go for a Surly Big Dummy and eventually one of the stoke monkey assist units when they're available. But BD now won't be available here until Sep. The Stoke monkey assist will fit a 'standard' Xtracycle conversion but I reckon it'll be £1,150 + shipping from US by the time duty and VAT are factored in and the design is assist up to 20mph which wouldn't be legal here though that could be got around.

Taking the cost into account and UK based support available a Kalkhoff Xtracycle starts to look a better option. Though of course the panasonic couldn't be transferred to a BD in the future.

The Xtracycle can take 700c wheels, but tyre width is limited to 35mm and the version I've got will take disc or 26" V brakes. So I can
Get the nexus hub built into 26" wheel and use V brake
Get a new nexus hub built into 26" wheel and use disc or V brake and keep Kalkhoff wheel in case I ever want to sell.
Use 26" disc wheel I've already got with a derailleur which in turn means 3/32 chain becomes neccessary.
With the nexus options I'd be looking to use chain tensioner to minimise chain adjustment faff.

With a 2.3 Big Apple 26" tyre the diameter will be very close to std 700 / 40 set up which means it shouldn't compromise handling.

And just to complicate matters I've just finished building up my recycled long wheel base recumbent which would be absolutely wonderful with a bit of assist for hill climbing!

Hello Andy
Maybe you could use a 700c rear wheel with derailleur gears and disc brake. Or a rollerbrake version of the nexus, if it would fit?.

 

[andyh2]

Hi Martin,

A 700 would be OK with disc or roller, but the max tyre size is then 35mm.

A 26" hub gear would give greatest strength and ease of use.
26" derailleur would be cheapest as I have the parts, but is only an option if 3/32 chain will fit front chainring and drive sprocket.

The Xtracycled Giant I saw on web mentioned machining chainring and drive sprockets and I don't want to get into that, but that might have been to accommodate narrower 9 speed chain.

 

[flecc]

If you count who's really making them, isn't it just 3 or 4 ?

Derby: Kalkhoff, Raleigh, Rixe and ?

Gazelle

Swissbee

Some Finnish company.

How come it's easy to get stuff from China, but hard from Japan?

One of the japanese webshops I found when googling for an Agattu battery could make a nice extra profit supplying European customers through an Ebay shop.

Helkama and BikeTech, they're still all different sources to approach at importer level.

There are quantity restrictions on Japanese imports in to the EU.

Remembering how the price of a Panasonic battery direct from Japan ended up more expensive than buying from the importer, I'm not confident that Japanese goods could be sold competitively to here.
.

 

[flecc]

Hi Martin,

A 700 would be OK with disc or roller, but the max tyre size is then 35mm.

A 26" hub gear would give greatest strength and ease of use.
26" derailleur would be cheapest as I have the parts, but is only an option if 3/32 chain will fit front chainring and drive sprocket.

The Xtracycled Giant I saw on web mentioned machining chainring and drive sprockets and I don't want to get into that, but that might have been to accommodate narrower 9 speed chain.

The Nexus roller brake is rated at only 100 kilos gross (rider + bike and load) and is very weak on the average e-bike. On a Kalkhoff/Xtracycle outfit it would be nearly useless.

I'm sure that machining would have been for the 9 speed DualDrive. When it's light tomorrow I'll dig out the earlier model chainring and check it for you with eight speed chain.
.

 

[andyh2]

Thanks Flecc. If the 8 speed chain does fit it would give the greatest flexibility of options.

I re-found that link to the Todd Fahrrer Giant Xtracycle and he was indeed adapting for a 9 speed DualDrive. An interesting conversion but increasing the range of assistance to such greater speeds must cost in terms of range. I reckon assistance up to 15mph and especially the help up hills when loaded will be just right for an Xtracycle.

100 kilo weight limit on roller brake would give 10 kilos for bike and load . I was more thinking V or disc. Apparantly it's easy to lock up the rear on an unloaded Xtracycle as the weight is more evenly distributed front and rear than on a standard bike.

I think what I'd most likely do is try it with a 26" wheel singlespeed to check the feel of the X / Agattu combination and then if it feels 'right' choose from available hub and gearing options.

I'm making a bit of an assumption as well that the Agattu is a bit heavier built than the forthcoming pro-connect and will therefore retain a bit more rigidity with the Xtracycle. Of course the bulk of the weight difference might just be down to rigid forks and lighter tyres and the frames be very similar.

It will be nice when the cross bar version arrives of Agattu arrives to see if there is any difference in the rigidity department. Actually it'll be nice for the folk with them on order to get riding them

 

[flecc]

I'm sure the crossbar Agattu is the better bet for the Xtracycles add-on, the rear frame triangle very strong. Although I don't know the Pro Connect in detail, it's very light weight tends to indicate the thinnest possible tubing.

William Morrison in the USA commutes at highish speeds on his Lafree Xtracycle with DualDrive, but I don't know which DualDrive he fitted, probably the eight speed though. He reported 25 mph, and that doesn't have a high power mode.

Here's a rather poor photo of his bike before he fitted the DualDrive:

This was created as a "camera car" for him to film an event sitting backwards Tour de France motorcycle photographer fashion with someone else riding, but now used for commuting into the city.

I'll post here tomorrow with the chain feedback.
.

 

[flecc]

I'm afraid the answer is no Andy, on the old unit at least, and probably the very similar new one, eight speed 3/32" chain will not fit either chainwheel or motor sprocket, so one face on each would have to be ground off 1/32".

Others fitting DualDrives haven't mentioned this, but I daresay it wouldn't be difficult to find a local engineering company who could do it for you.
.

 

[andyh2]

Flecc, thanks for checking that. At least it clarifies the options, either set an engineering firm to work to machine down the chainring and drive sprocket or use a 26" hub rear wheel.

I'll probably choose the latter as the hub gear seems really sensible for this application.