A to B has new top-rated bike

frank9755

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 19, 2007
1,228
2
London
I was browsing the AtoB web site last night and saw that they have a new 5-star bike at the top of their rankings, the Gazelle Easy Glider. I don't know much about it other than their description. It's clearly a crank-mounted motor, drive through the gears, pedelec set-up in the manner of the Lafree.
The poor Lafree has been shunted down to the 'no longer available' section of their rankings.
I await the review in the next edition with interest!

Frank
 

nigel

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 18, 2006
467
0
Nigel

yes i saw that last night frank we now have a new no 1 the gazelle easy glider i remember flying kiwi touted this bike some time ago i suppose its only right as the lafree has not been made for some time now still i stick with my torq its a faster machine:D
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,311
30,676
It's a German but Dutch style step-through frame (but there may be a gents as well) with the Panasonic unit again, but this time with Lithium Ion battery upping the power a little. Unfortunately that extra has been partly wasted by making the bike a lot heavier than the original.

It weighs 28.6 kilos including a 2.1 kilo battery, while the original Twist weighed 22 kilos including a 3.7 kilo battery, the later versions a little more.

Taking into account it's battery is 1.6 kilos lighter, the Gazelle bike alone manages to be an extraordinary 8.2 kilos / 18 lbs heavier than the Twist. There are a few complete bicycles that total this weight difference. Perhaps Wildebeest would have been a better choice of name! :(

Still, driving through the gears it will climb almost anything, but of course rather slowly as existing tests have reported. It's £1400.
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coops

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 18, 2007
1,225
1
Manchester U.K.
The £1400 tag made me think of one of the other crank-drive bikes, biketec flyer, which starts at that price but its been said here that to get the real benefits of that (flyer) range one must spend £2000 or more...
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,311
30,676
I think the Gazelle could be giving better value than Bike Tech in this instance, though that remains to be seen.

Recent experiences with the Lafree Twist range breakdowns means I no longer have an unqualified recommendation for these Panasonic motored bikes, and always warn of that now. Before buying a Gazelle I'd want to know if there was an exchange scheme for the motor unit and that price, if not, the price of a new unit.

And bearing in mind prices of German products in the UK and the Giant battery prices, I'd also check how much spare Li-ion batteries were, especially given the short lives many are experiencing with these.

This isn't in any way questioning the quality of the bike, but anything can and will break down at some time and there should be satisfactory provision for that on an expensive product. That satisfactory provision hasn't ever existed for the Lafree Twist series.
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JohnInStockie

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 10, 2006
1,048
1
Stockport, SK7
Sorry Flecc, not meaning to dis you on this, but although there indeed have been a small number of reported failures of the panasonic drive, From ALL accounts (based on the shear number sold and the way they were sold (as in completely remotely in many countries inc the USA)) I am not so convinced that the drive is as 'iffy' as the last few of your posts have implied (and also personally for me and you I hope not too).

I do not doubt that technology has indeed moved in a different direction (I wont say forward until I know better, and agree on it), but for me the whole point of an owning an 'e-bike' is to remember to 'bike' bit, as in PEDALING REQUIRED. I understand that the newer Hubs are indeed very promising, and are delivering on their promises, but I dont think we can write off the drive through the gears option just yet, after all, Panasonic (as in that huge company) are still improving the motor (and prey they continue), can anyone say hand on heart that the next version of this motor wont be as ground-breaking as the original Twist's, we simply do not know.

I agree that the Gazelle is simply too heavy, and although it should climb just about any hill, it will do it slowly, just like the Twist did. However, surely at least it is still an e-bike thats using the latest and only drive through gears motor (that is a quality motor make) on the market and as such it should be encouraged.

I am not so quick to write off the 'drive through gears method, not yet anyways.

John
 

JohnInStockie

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 10, 2006
1,048
1
Stockport, SK7
For clarity (and this is NOT at anyone, just my thought train), I should add I have no disrespect for the Torq at all, I think its now the best bike on the market no doubt, its certainly the fastest, and probably therefore the best (based on any bikes inability to climb hills, 'well dont go over the hills'!!). But I would prefer, that I could have a bike that could cover all the bases, and the no.1 is pedalec (after all these are bicycles) meaning there is no terrain you cannot take it, No.2 is throttle-assist, but only if you need it, it should be there to a level (if you want a throttle only bike then its called a motorcycle), No.3, it should be fun, and from all accounts the Torq certainly is.

I guess its down to my choice of the e-bike as a replacement to the car, going to work before rush-hour is rarely fun, coming home in rush-hour usually isnt. But at least if I am on an e-bike, I am not therefore in a car.

I guess I just really believe in the concept of pedal assist :confused:

John
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,311
30,676
I'm not discouraging it John, and as I said above, I'm not questioning it's quality.

But I will not ignore the service aspect on these motors, which has always been totally unsatisfactory. A complete new motor unit at £450 or more with the old one binned is not a satisfactory service. It's both commercially and environmentally irresponsible. Recommending it as fans of the system often do, without a mention of this aspect is in my opinion just wrong

Under 20,000 sold in seven years world wide, with only a small proportion of those in Britain I don't call very many. A to B know of the many failures as I do through those who contact me through my Twist site, and David and I have been in communication about these for a long time, then yet again both person to person last Sunday and in further mails since about another one. Being a strong fan of the system, David is taking the line that hopefully Panasonic has improved the unit, and I certainly hope so.

While at New Milton on Sunday I was advising yet another Twist owner and forum member with a failed unit, he's another scrapping his bike. My advice was that as he likes the system the Gazelle is the ideal replacement, but I warned him that as he could face the same situation again, he should carefully consider that possibility before finally deciding. Following my advice he has ordered a Gazelle, so does that sound like me putting it down? I just did the responsible thing based on my knowledge of what's going on, leaving the choice to him.

Even David's brother's Twist is amongst the failures and he's adopted a strategy of advice for those who have failed bikes. I think the evidence you feel exists about reliability is an absence of information rather than anything specific, where the two of us who do have permanent information sources see different. The fact is that unit is nowhere near as reliable as hub motors which commonly last for years, not because of it's motor but because of the integrated and non-replaceable electronics. The very occasional hub motor controller that fails is much less complex and easily and cheaply replaced.

This has nothing to do with drive through gears and is just a matter of service availability, and I shall continue to warn of that until those who supply bikes with this unit face up to their responsibilities. I would do the same if a hub motor bike was in the same situation.
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,311
30,676
I've just seen your further post above John, and I think after reading my above reply, you'll see that you've got the wrong end of the stick completely. This is nothing whatsoever to do with bike models or drive systems. When I give advice I do it for the person I'm addressing, not for me based on personal preferences. That's why I happily said the Gazelle was the right choice for that member on Sunday, subject to his acceptance of the risk element, though it would not be the choice for me.
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prState

Pedelecer
Jun 14, 2007
244
0
Las Vegas, Nevada
I didn't know there were that many Twist failures (learn something new everyday) but, I do wonder if where I ride might have something to do with the durability so far. The roads, only very very rarely betray me, and deliver any kind of shock to the bike. Of all the places I lived in the states, the roads here seem to be maintained better than anywhere else. Also, with only 2 inches of annual rainfall, there's not much to complain of there. Apparently, the electronics stand up to heat very well, as well.

Most of the electronics are hard wired (circuit board right?), so to damage that I suspect it comes from shock, or are people somehow abusing the battery motor relationship? Actually, I'm curious, if it's motor failure. And what might specifically be happening.
 

JohnInStockie

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 10, 2006
1,048
1
Stockport, SK7
Ok Flecc, I understand now, sorry for mis-interpreting you.

Must admit it is strange then if there are that many failures, I mean the bike was on sale for six years and its only now that we are hearing of these issues. I completely agree that there should be a better service and repair provision from Giant, are there that many differences between hub and drivetrain motors themselves, I had thought a motor was pretty standard?

From your experience and conversations on these failures, what are they more commonly due to (motor itself or circuit board, e.t.c.)?

John
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,311
30,676
My comments aren't based on experience with my own unit which has performed perfectly for well over four years now, though it's only a rarely used backup bike for a couple of months now. For further explanation, here's the reason for my concerns. I only opened my Twist site at the end of December, and as I'd found with the Torq site and Russ found with Pedelecs, it takes some weeks to educate Google into showing it. Therefore all of the feedback on these failures is in just over four months, and you'll have noticed my caution has grown only through this period.

Most of the units suffer a mainboard fault, and these are either complete failure to operate, pedelec operation faults, or more commonly, reversion to permanent eco mode only, rendering them useless on steep hills. There was a stage in the bikes history when Giant sent out a large batch of new bikes with the latter fault, accompanied by a replacement unit with instructions to dealers to swap them and scrap the old unit. This indicates to me a weakness in the electronic design may be present. None of these faults has ever been identified to my knowledge, the circuit board being embedded into place in silicone rubber and fully encapsulated so impossible to replace or fault trace, which would be difficult in any case with micro-electronics.

All those notified to me have been UK units, and apart from that majority group there have been a small number of other faults. Two bikes have suffered the small Hall sensor board coming adrift, leading to erratic behaviour. The mounting for this is rather unsatisfactory, it being located by slots in it's ends corresponding to two plastic pegs on the motor casing wall internally, and then retained by rubber washers pushed onto the peg ends. In a greasy environment, the rubber washers can slip off. The cause of one slipping off isn't known, but in the second case the bike fell over, jarring the board off it's mounts. These were repairable, but it's an extremely fiddly operation, in one case completed by the owners wife due to her smaller fingers. In one of these the plastic pegs had broken off and the board had to be glued into position. That unit isn't working perfectly, but is to be used until it finally dies. I carry out this repair using tools in a "keyhole surgery" method working through a narrow slot with a light to avoid the job of stripping the whole unit, but it is tricky and only possible because I'm so familiar with the unit.

Another bike had a motor shaft bearing fail, but as these are standard ballrace units one was obtained from a bearing supplier and fitted, still a full stripdown job with bearing pulling which many owners would not be able to do and no cycle dealer I know will do.

There have been two units with problems associated with the sealed pedelec unit, though in both cases I suspect the mainboard was the true cause.

A number of these bikes have been scrapped, with one of three current failed ones definitely going that way, and one has been donated to a Cycle Museum as justifiably a great of electric biking. One tactic David and I use where the very steepest hills aren't involved is to advise stripping out all unwanted components and motor from the alloy crankcase, leaving the unit as just a bottom bracket shell with pedal shaft. This leaves a UK Twist at around 15 kilos without battery, normal bike weight, then fitting a front hub motor. The Heinzmann fits well but is expensive, and there are many other cheaper ones, the new Nano motor being a good match performance wise, a good hill climber and cheap. These can be fed from the existing Giant battery, which can be recelled for larger capacity if wished. The end result is a neat, light and compact e-bike, albeit throttle controlled since standard pedelec discs aren't easy to adapt to the pedal shaft. It is possible though.

There are some wear issues, seemingly quality control failures. For example, David's is one of the Comforts with excessive wear on the motor output sprocket and shaft splines, the sprocket left wobbling about but hanging on so far, but thing like this are rare.

It's impossible to accurately say how many bikes are affected by total failure, but possible to estimate from educated guessing. With the youngest bikes failing being two years old, taking the period from the first two year olds through to last December, adjusting it for their being only one third of the Twist population at the two year point and qualifying that with those I've knowledge of, arrives at 1.4%.

That might seem no problem on bikes up to seven years old, but it assumes that every failure has been notified to me, and that cannot be true. Again educated guessing using the proportions of owners coming online to this site helps, since it indicates those that might have access to my site. Unfortunately that led me to a failure rate of 35 to 40% which is clearly excessive. Therefore it's impossible to be sure, but it's certainly very much over that 1.4% since owners of these utility bikes will include those least likely to be e-bike enthusiasts researching and visiting online sites. A glance at the ownerships declared on that thread in this site, bearing in mind that many Giant owners have Suedes and a couple the early Lafree models, shows how small the proportion of the 5000 UK Lafree Twist series owners are probably in here. We don't have anything like that number of total members!

In summary, a failure rate of say 5% to 10% is not too serious, but the issue is not merely one of the rate but one of the high expense involved when failure occurs. Hence my warnings.

In case anyone is still in doubt about my intentions with the Gazelle, I'd remind that I was the first to start complaining of the Torq's poor hill climbing, furiously opposed in that at the time by many new Torq owners, 50cycles and A to B. But with time the truth about it's limitations is now widely accepted, even by the suppliers it seems, and the F series are a response to that. I equally warn those interested in the Sparta Ion about it's need for electronic resetting at times, only available at two locations in the UK. And when someone mentions the BionX, I warn about it's 900 dollar battery.

Hopefully that will convince that I'm even handed in my advice. I'm not in thrall to advertisers, magazines or any suppliers and can be as independent as I like, taking full advantage of that.
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,311
30,676
Just seen your further post John, and you'll see my reply above gives the reason that you're only just hearing of the issues, my site only being effective for a little over four months. There was no source before that other than A to B, who have been reluctant to comment for various valid reasons. They had a theory that it might be a large faulty batch, but those I know cover from two to four and a half years old, so that doesn't fit.
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JohnInStockie

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 10, 2006
1,048
1
Stockport, SK7
Flecc, thanks for clarifying the basis for your views and for clarifying my mis-givings. I am now rather concerned........and a bit worried now that maybe I have made a mistake too.

To be honest, I wouldnt know eco mode if it hit me having never been able to tell the difference between them.

All mechanical things brake, its in their nature, but obviously it needs to be factored in to peoples purchasing decisions, especially if they are swapping a car for one of these.

John
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,311
30,676
I wouldn't be worried John, after all I'm not, and the great majority are ok.

You'll soon know if it drops to Eco only. That doesn't show on the flat, but is a power restriction when you exert the most yourself, such as in hill climbing. That then saves energy, though not very much. I tend to agree with A to B that Eco modes in general are a bit of a waste of time, but they give manufacturers a chance to claim huge ranges by using them in flat territory with plenty of pedal effort in still air conditions to set a figure. :)
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