399euros pedelec hubmotor in germany

[qeeeme]

here i am again
i drive 25km x 2 , mainly flat and small hills in germany. 1 year ago i bought a cheap pedelec 500 euros with chinese suzhou bafang hub motor + 36v led battery. it helped but only 3 gears on the bike was not good (either too heavy or too easy so icouldnt assist well). and the worst was: sometime the motor just stopped to work and i was then driving a heavy bike around. then suddenly sooner or later it started again.
that time i had no ideas on pedelecs and gave the bike back loosing a little money. the customer service gave me under garantee a new battery and controller but it diddnt help but now they are my own. thanx mainly to your forum ilearned more about it and on the controller it is written maxi current 14A typical current 7A undervoltage 31,5v. because i want to learn all about it i have meanwhile opened the controller a am looking at the electronic circuits

why this stop and go? my guess is now: i have been reading again the notice and it is written : maximal load on the bike 100kg okay let say when i am at my maximal weight of 85kg + lots of rainy clothes helmet shoes etc + tools for the bike + rucksack i am approaching 95kg and more and the i drove avery time with full speed i mean throttle open at maximum and more: i used to piut a "trailer"(?)( i hope is the right word in english i mean a 2 wheels small chariot for do my shopping ) of course with the trailer full load we are more than 100kg . so my guess: the motor is desiggned with the bike for a maxi torque and with more or near to 100 kg it means it has to deliver a too high torque. me putting the twistgrip full open and long time it force a maxi current of the controller and then sometime the electronic will shut off all this cause more than 14 A. and then sometimes later the electronisc will work again, when? after all has cooldede down? it has to do with the temperature? i mention even that once the security fusible was dead so the customer service changed it. so security fusible is maybe driven by temperature sensor on tzhe bike? do you have any similar experience with hub motors? or is another theory possible?

and now this: thinking about what kit to buy (nine continent from ebay germany but never i boght on internet, suzhou bafang motor 140 euro and reuse my old controller? or crystalyte? where to buy? no shop selling it around the corner here so internet again or ebike.ca never done such buy through continennts, or cyclone kit from taiwan? where to buy? how? then of course in grermany heinzmann or schachner from austria but big money neede and for what performance?). other strategy of course is s flyer or panasonic motor in kalkhoff raleigh but well biggest money and until i learn more about and test them well some day on my commute it will take time and decide if s flyer muich too much or not or invest the money in learning slowly and putting motors on different bikes (the panasonic bikes of course i cannot take the panasonic unit and put it in another frame, no way for me)

so and what happens now? actually a promotion at a bike shop on the cormer in my city: 399 euro for a rabeneick bike with sram spectro 7 gears and again the suzhou bafang motor and a led battery. so money matters and my situation is:
- little money for immediately a pedelec working for me (not a kit taking me long time to put in a bike)
- this time i will drive more carefully (taking in account: not more than 100 kg load, not twistgrip full all th e time (i hope i can control myself) and beside this of course assisting more thanx to 7 gears instead of only 3
- learning more about the hubmotors and the relationship between torque and current asnd controller and myx commute and my needs i will be closer to a more appropraiate finding of the best compromise for me
- my second led battery is there and my second controller will use it for testing ( and i have to be careful with myself cause of course there is yet a tendencyin my thoughts to go inside the electronic, to boost the controller or get better one etc but again i have to calm myself between wanting to know all in one minute and wanting to get all and pay nothing. anyways this is a fascinating world for me a mix of pyhysics, mechanik, electricity, magnetism, electronisc + philosophy + environment care + globalisation with chinese europeans us , sport aspects human power of body and psychology, it is all in it that fascinate me and of course i start thinkin of having solar cells on my small balconee in cloudy germany to load my battery(!)

well the difference between now and one year ago is trhat i was alone with bike shops having no real ideas of pedelecs but selling them and now thanx to you (thank you again and again) i am improving my knowledge

the actual point for me is : do i buy the 399 euro bike saturday? i think i will do it even if it sounds a little stupid but so i have immediately a pedelec for small momey and will improve with more time. i just cant decide so quickly on flyer s or proconnect without really testing them and beside all i have my race bike and the bus so far, so 399 euro for an immediate pedelec even if not so optimal will help me and having experience with it i hope to improve with praxis and not only theory

thanx again and any idea on the stop and go problems are welcome (it should not be the battery load i think cause i guess remembering this happening even with full battery(?)

happy eastern alle zusammen!

 

[john]

queeeme,

I am sure others will respond who know more about different bikes, but most people seem to advise against buying a cheap pedelec. One quote from AtoB is "It will be one of the worst things you've ever wasted £300 on".
http://www.atob.org.uk/Electric_Buyers'_Guide.html

I would spend a bit more time deciding what you want, how much you can afford and doing some more research.

Personally I was glad I got the right bike for me. I use it so much now that I have sold my car!

John

 

[flecc]

The cutting out under load is normally caused by low voltage as advised before qeeeme, this point set by the controller, and it's usually due to either the battery not having enough capacity (Ampere/hours) or having high cell resistance. That resistance can be caused by age or long storage without use.

The Suzhou Bafang motors are generally too powerful for your 14A controller, they generally need 20A capability, and more being better. I don't know anything about the nine continents motor.

So it seems you choice is between a Panasonic powered bike which is ideal for the hills and weight carrying, or buying the €399 bike tomorrow (Saturday).

My advice is this. If you can afford to do it this way, go ahead and buy the €399 bike and try it. You know it will not be good quality, but it might be enough for you. Then if you don't like it, sell it on through ebay or anywhere else convenient to recover some of the €399 and buy the more expensive model. That way will give you more experience, not cost too much extra, and get you onto powered wheels immediately to enjoy yourself for the rest of Easter.

P.S. If you want it and you do not have the Euro sign ( € ) on your computer, if you have a standard Microsoft keyboard layout, press the AltGr key and number 4.

If that doesn't work, hold down the ordinary Alt key and press 0128 on the Numeric keypad at the right. When you release the Alt key, the € will appear.
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[qeeeme]

The cutting out under load is normally caused by low voltage as advised before qeeeme, this point set by the controller, and it's usually due to either the battery not having enough capacity (Ampre/hours) or having high cell resistance. That resistance can be caused by age or long storage without use..

i remember now in a bike shop having seen a pedelec with schachner motor and there is a control device with 4 leds showing the current , let say one led at 2A one at 6A one at 10A and one at 14A. and in the bike notice from schachner it is written something like.
- avoid the lightning of the 14A by using your muscles and assist with cycling. 14A means overload and it must be avoided
- the 6A led should only lightning sometimes and for short time. ensure that by right gear ans assisting the bike pedalling
now putting this thoughts with what i learned here i think: maybe me and the suzhou bafang and 14A maxi controller and my load of more than 100 kg means: i was always in a similar position as a schachner motor pedelec with the 14A led lightning everytime
so my ideas are:
- if i buy now the 399 € (thanx flecc for your advice on how to write €!!)PEDELEC I WILL FIRST just drive it slowly so that my 25km are ensured without me getting tired. i will put a speed tachometer for just be reading my speeds on my way and first know aha driving slowly at that speeds all is okay (then i will push the stuff at its limits later(?))
- well is it possible to have a control of what happens on my motor then? first idea is to take a multimeter with me. now if the theory of motor stop coupled with low voltage meets my experience so what is happening? when i start with a fresh battery i have been measuring the voltage at my led battery full with no load and it shows 39v i mean 39,1 or 38,7 stuff like that. so then i put it on my pedelec and imagine i push it at its limits overloading with twistgrip full open and suddenly it stops. then according to the theory, the moment it stops the input voltage or battery voltage was let say 31,5v as indicated at "undervoltage 31,5v" written on the controller. so then if i stop and take my multimeter and put it on the battery plus and minus (where the charger come in ) then i should read 31,5v? maybe no because that time it is without load? or put the multimeter constantly installed on my pedelec and follow the battery voltage while driving? it will work? or i put some small leds and electronic and they lightned at 38vand 35 and 32(?) actually on the twistgrip there is a led battery indicator which is either green or yellow. at yellow the notice booklet says the battery should be loaded. then maybe this led is exactly that: a simple indicator on the battery level(?). my experience with my old pedelec on 2x 25km was that let say after 30- 35(?) km (that time i had no tachometer measuring speed and distances)
the led went yellow but it was no problem to finish my 50km
-or it is possible in theory to read the current? i mean to see that 14A are reached? actually maybe i dont grasp the physics behind it i mean the relationship torque to current and voltage. i am so far vaguely that: a motor and battery given, open twist grip full means "no restriction on current token from motor"(?) and then reducing the throttle opening means something like chopping power modulator which is electronic chopping the current what as middle value a ampere value is

 

[flecc]

As you've guessed, the reading after it cuts out will not be 31.5 volts, since the load will have been removed. If you do buy the 399€ bike, I think it best to trust the manufacturer first and just ride it with some pedal assistance given, not worrying about the voltage and current.

There are cycle instruments for measuring everything while you ride, voltage, amps used etc, and they have to be wired into the positive and negative leads from the battery to the controller. However, they are expensive, about £60 to £100 in the UK, so too much in proportion to the 399€ bike. Also, they would be of no use on a Panasonic equipped bike which has sealed in connections in it's unit and it's very sensitive circuitry could be upset by the measuring device. Therefore your money could be wasted if you bought one and then changed bike.

Here's the site for the CycleAnalyst meter.

On the meter that's on the 399€ bike, if you shut off the throttle at any point when riding and wait a second or two, it will indicate what is left in the battery. When the throttle is opened, it suffers from the motor load dropping the voltage, so the reading can be wrong (low), especially uphill under high load.
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[qeeeme]

the point remain for me: i am just fascinated by this pedelec word, the mix of mechanik electronic environment sport etc therefore well knowing that it is not the ideal for me i should buy the bike tomorrow 399€.
now i have read that there is the kit cyclone with a sprocket on the chain (a "simple" panasonic)
thanx for the hint of meter at about 100 € let say how far i will come with that

still remain the question: why this stop and go i experienced? i hope putting less load that this will no more happens. but if it has to do with a low battery voltage how do you explain that after a while it starts again? this i experienced everytime! the battery doesnt charge or relax somehow when nothing is done just driving with it. i repeat: what happened to me was: suddenly motor not working at all so i was cycling with my muscles alone and tried some times the twist grip and nothing happened and then suddenly some times trying again it was there again and i reached my house. so if low battery voltage shuted the motor off why was it able after a while to start again? that time i guessed a bad connection and melted a battery connection better but happened again (or it was another connection bad more inside(?))
another point is that there are maybe different suzhou bafang motor models in use but the one i should buy now is similar to tzhe one i had

 

[flecc]

First the Cyclone isn't remotely as good as the Panasonic and has had many problems. Waterproofing, corrosion etc. The chain path is unsatisfactory as well.

The meter wasn't 100€, it was about £100 (100 UK pounds) in the UK, though I don't know the price for you, but maybe 130€

The cutting out when not under load you describe now could be a poor connection elsewhere, or a battery problem. I think you said it was a lead acid battery, so it could be an intermittent internal short. It's really impossible to tell at a distance. You actually said led battery, but if it's not a lead acid, please let me know as that can make a big difference. Some battery types do recover from a cutout and start delivering current again, and there's no mystery there. Batteries are chemical devices, not electrical ones, and chemical reactions take time. If one attempts to draw more than a battery can supply, the chemical reaction fails to keep up, but then recovers and starts again when the battery is rested. I don't think that is the case with your bike though.

Suzhou Bafang do indeed make different motors, but most are powerful. Just being similar isn't enough to tell what controller it needs, the specification for that particular motor is needed. There are not many motors now using controllers of only 14 Ah ability, 20Ah being more common.
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[qeeeme]

The cutting out when not under load you describe now could be a poor connection elsewhere, or a battery problem.

yes the point is it was sometime cutting out without the bike loaded with 100 kg. by the way what is your experience with pedelecs and loads. are some designed for trailers and other not? or do you have the experience that some are no problem with trailer? what happens to the others when high loaded. as an example in the normal bicycle world there are some bicycles designed for high loads like for postman or transport. maybe the question is: what happens in the pedelec world when being on a steep hill long time? overheating and then fusible broken? or too much current and controller stops at maxi current to start again later? or voltage dropping of battery bringing controller to "under voltage" and then cut and then depending on battery it starts or no starts again.

I think you said it was a lead acid battery, so it could be an intermittent internal short. .

yes "blei gel batterie" so cheapest lead acid battery. in that case as you say if the stop was due to "under voltage reached" there is no theory of why starts again after a while(?) therefore the thinking about connections bad

.[/QUOTE]

suzhou bafang
do indeed make different motors, but most are powerful. Just being similar isn't enough to tell what controller it needs, the specification for that particular motor is needed. There are not many motors now using controllers of only 14 Ah ability, 20Ah being more common.
.

and is it possible having a motor with controller 14A to buy controller 20A and get other performances or is there always a couple due to designe "that motor with match that controller" . controller of 14A because of cheap? or because of motor not possible to get better controller? (idea of future= getting better battery and better controller for that cheap motor?)

 

[flecc]

yes the point is it was sometime cutting out without the bike loaded with 100 kg. by the way what is your experience with pedelecs and loads. are some designed for trailers and other not? or do you have the experience that some are no problem with trailer? what happens to the others when high loaded. as an example in the normal bicycle world there are some bicycles designed for high loads like for postman or transport. maybe the question is: what happens in the pedelec world when being on a steep hill long time? overheating and then fusible broken? or too much current and controller stops at maxi current to start again later? or voltage dropping of battery bringing controller to "under voltage" and then cut and then depending on battery it starts or no starts again.

I think you have not understood what I keep saying on this qeeeme. As they are bikes assisted by a motor, they have very limited capability, and what the load is doesn't matter, heavy person or trailer. If the demand on a motor gets too high, the voltage will drop and the controller will cut the power if the battery is unable to sustain the voltage above 31.5 volts. None of these e-bikes ia designed for heavy loads on the road since the law doesn't allow high power, though the Heinzmann motor can be bought with internal low gearing to use it's limited power for loads and hills at the cost of a lower top speed. They make versions for 18 kph maximum and 6.5 kph maximum. They do make higher power motors also, but they are illegal on the roads.

yes "blei gel batterie" so cheapest lead acid battery. in that case as you say if the stop was due to "under voltage reached" there is no theory of why starts again after a while(?) therefore the thinking about connections bad

It can be bad connections in the wiring, an undersize battery, or a faulty battery with internal buckling causing shorts when heating up under load, or even a faulty controller. At a distance I cannot tell which. Starting again indicates that it might be a temperature related cause, so faulty battery or controller.

and is it possible having a motor with controller 14A to buy controller 20A and get other performances or is there always a couple due to designe "that motor with match that controller" . controller of 14A because of cheap? or because of motor not possible to get better controller? (idea of future= getting better battery and better controller for that cheap motor?)

Yes, you can fit a 20 amp controller, as long as it's for the same motor type, Brush motor, Hall motor with three wires, or Hall motor with eight wires. Most motors allow you to run them with higher voltage as well with a suitable controller to get more power.
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[qeeeme]

test: when i write here what happens

just to test the "title" field and to tell you: i called the shop and told them i am not buying the 399€ pedelec they said no problem they have other buyer.
well it happened that saturday i wanted to buy and i wanted to go there with inliner but it was so windy and water from the baltic see came a little on the shore street. well i didnt reach the shop. + thanx to your advices + informations from italy (jobike.it) + my "inner decision" : well maybe wait a little and go some day with 1800 € for agattu and make experience with it and then go for more (pro connect or flyer) and give the agattu my sister in law (she shows interest).
here i want to thank again for your help. i still ask myself why there is no german speaking forum (germany + swiss + austria(?)) such as yours or the italian or french one. but well maybe i didnt find it yet. (or more hills in uk? and germany flat + lot of cars + more money(?) and swiss austria very high mountain(?)
and this but maybe new thread: where is a study or thoughts about "comparing pedelecs to motorbikes (i mean with gas, fuel,"benzin")regarding to environment because electrical bikes no polluting but the energy for the battery itself coming from gas in this case what is the difference between direct gas in motocycle and gas in producing energy charging battery and then consuming it as pedelec? pedelec lighter?

 

[flecc]

It is strange that there is no forum in the German speaking countries, but I think that's the presence of the Italian and British ones are just due to an individual's inspiration to create them. Normally forums arise from an existing mass market as with bicycles and computers, but there is no mass market for e-bikes yet.

So a German speaking forum will have to wait until an individual has the inspiration to create one and lead the market, rather than follow it.

I think the answer on motor cycles using fossil fuel on the spot, and e-bikes using fossil fuel at a remove is one of scale of generation. It's easier to produce green energy centrally and distribute it than for a motor cycle to be green.

With e-bikes in Britain we can look forward to using green energy from clean and friendly nuclear power stations in the future, something sadly denied to you by German government policy, despite Angela Merkel being in favour of nuclear power.

Never mind, we can send you our fallout.
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[qeeeme]

i know the velomobilforum.de where they speak about electrical motors put mainly in "velomobil" (you know i think same word in english, recumbent + closed like a "cigar") but i dont find them so having your knowledge and experience. but maybe the point "due to individuals" is right.

I think the answer on motor cycles using fossil fuel on the spot, and e-bikes using fossil fuel at a remove is one of scale of generation. It's easier to produce green energy centrally and distribute it than for a motor cycle to be green..

okay i got it. do you have any information about solar energy? theoretically it is possible to produce solar energy and store it in battery or is irt too expensive? why? because too few sun in europe? and theoretically in the sahara would it be cheaper or is it expensive due to the high cost of silicium layers or stuff like that to catch and convert the sun radiations?

well okay if we all try to reduce aour consumption and if we produce better energy then of course it will be better to produce better energy and store it in batteries than to use fuels in motorcycles

still the question if you have sonme information, what is the difference of one liter fuel burnt to produce electrical energy stored in battery used to drive a pedelec and one liter fuel used directly in a motorcycle? that way the motorcycle better?

 

[flecc]

Yes, we use the same word, Velomobile. Most of Britain is too hilly for them.

The cost of solar panels is the main problem, it's difficult to recover the cost within their life when using them for battery charging. A to B magazine did use two large solar panels to charge their Lafree battery at one time, but there were problems with the slow rate of charge in European weather. The answer would have been in charging lead acid batteries first, then using those to charge the Lafree's NiMh battery at a higher rate. However the cost still made it ridiculously uneconomic.

I don't know of a tested answer to the one litre question in motor cycle use or e-bike battery charging, though I'm sure the motorcycle could be the more efficient.

Ultimately we will probably have all electric vehicles, since we will have to conserve the remaining oil for chemical purposes at some future time, and it will be too valuable to burn in transporting us or heating our homes.

Even before that, we may decide to have them regardless of their efficiency for global warming reasons, the carbon emissions more easily controlled in central generation than in local burning of fossil fuel.
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