250 motor repairs a month

[Bikes4two]

A friend just sent me a link to an article in the Independent Guardian newspaper (link) discussing the high failure rate of ebike systems suffering from water ingress with the eBike Centre* in the New Forest saying they receive about 250 motors a month for repairs.

The Bosch Gen4 gets a particular mention for failures - I wonder what the overall failure rate actually is?

After just returning from the south of France on a camping holiday where amongst others, the Dutch seem to dominate those visitors from outside of France, the great majority of bike riders were on ebikes and the majority of them were Bosch - can they really be that bad or hasn't the word spread yet?

Again in the news article, Bosch quoted an ingress protection rating of only IP54 - this seems very low for something that is going to get wet and muddy during it's life, especially an eMTB - even my smartphone is IP68!



*(worth taking a note of for any future repairs)

 

[nmmelectric]

Yes. Very relevant to me, and why I have decided that going (solely) to an electric recumbent trike (which I ride) is a Bad Idea. I don't want to give up the option of touring in the Highlands, which means allowing for heavy, driving rain, and the trike standing outside in it overnight, for up to a fortnight. It seems that no electric cycle system is adequate for such use. Some of Shimano's advertising indicates that it is, but reading their fine print, warranty and their record of handling failures indicates not. That's a serious problem for people who want to use a pedelec as their sole form of transport, especially in the west. IP54 is a joke for such use - IPx5 is the bare minimum, and IPx6 would be much better. But, except for heavy or driving rain, fords and flooded roads, IP54 (and hence Bosch) is probably fine.

I am looking into the possibility of a replaceable boom - most people would need separate fair and fine weather bicycles. Or a car :-(

 

[saneagle]

A friend just sent me a link to an article in the Independent newspaper (link) discussing the high failure rate of ebike systems suffering from water ingress with the eBike Centre* in the New Forest saying they receive about 250 motors a month for repairs.

The Bosch Gen4 gets a particular mention for failures - I wonder what the overall failure rate actually is?

After just returning from the south of France on a camping holiday where amongst others, the Dutch seem to dominate those visitors from outside of France, the great majority of bike riders were on ebikes and the majority of them were Bosch - can they really be that bad or hasn't the word spread yet?

Again in the news article, Bosch quoted an ingress protection rating of only IP54 - this seems very low for something that is going to get wet and muddy during it's life, especially an eMTB - even my smartphone is IP68!

View attachment 58193

*(worth taking a note of for any future repairs)

It's more of a problem for UK because global warming never happened here. They can move the temperature sensors to whatever locations they want to give the impression of temperature rise, but that doesn't stop the rain from falling.

Once the rain starts to go past that outer seal, the damage will become increasingly catastrophic. The seal is in a very vulnerable place where it gets ground away by accumulated dirt. Your only sure way to a long life is not to use the bike in dirty and wet conditions. All crank-drive bikes suffer from this, though at least the Chinese have the common sense to stick the electronics in a separately sealed compartment.

The problem is that when you increase the amount of sealing on the crank, the drag on the pedals goes up.

Worst case was the Bosch gen2 & 3 because it had two concentric shafts on the crank.

 

[saneagle]

Yes. Very relevant to me, and why I have decided that going (solely) to an electric recumbent trike (which I ride) is a Bad Idea.

Why are you being so narrow minded? A rear hub-motor will be fine. They last for ten years with no maintenance.

 

[Saracen]

OMG again not rocket science is it

I remember the chap at Cogs Y Gogs saying they had a bike come in with a motor fault, there was so much caked on MUD you couldn't SEE the motor, really !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Remove protection in summer replace in Autumn.

 

[nmmelectric]

Why are you being so narrow minded? A rear hub-motor will be fine. They last for ten years with no maintenance.

There is no need to be offensive.

I want to be able to get 140 Kg up at least a 200 m height 25% slope (and can provide only 100 watts myself), which is one problem with UK road-legal hub motors. That's over 90 nm at the hub, and 450 watts for over 8 minutes at a cadence of 60 rpm, or a more moderate power for 12.5 minutes at a cadence of 40 rpm. Hub motors don't like that sort of thing much, and I don't like the latter much!

The other is that I am not going to downgrade my Rohloff to a derailleur.

 

[matthewslack]

I'm just back from my latest trip up to Muckle Flugga and back, with all up weight of 140kg or so, on my now very well used Shimano E5000 puny 40Nm mid-drive motor.

27,000km, riding in whatever weather I'm given, but not deliberately ever riding in more surface water than I have to.

So far no sign of any issues.

 

[nmmelectric]

I'm just back from my latest trip up to Muckle Flugga and back, with all up weight of 140kg or so, on my now very well used Shimano E5000 puny 40Nm mid-drive motor.

27,000km, riding in whatever weather I'm given, but not deliberately ever riding in more surface water than I have to.

So far no sign of any issues.

That's impressive.

 

[matthewslack]

That's impressive.

The motor reliability is only a sample of one, but all I do is not abuse it or dunk it or pressure wash it.

I have no idea how long it will go on for! I heard of one that had done 67,000km.

 

[saneagle]

There is no need to be offensive.

I want to be able to get 140 Kg up at least a 200 m height 25% slope (and can provide only 100 watts myself), which is one problem with UK road-legal hub motors. That's over 90 nm at the hub, and 450 watts for over 8 minutes at a cadence of 60 rpm, or a more moderate power for 12.5 minutes at a cadence of 40 rpm. Hub motors don't like that sort of thing much, and I don't like the latter much!

The other is that I am not going to downgrade my Rohloff to a derailleur.

A rear hub motor can easily pull 140kg up a 25% slope. What are you on about? The Heinzmann system can pull 500kg up a 15.5% slope. If you want to keep your hub gears, you can use just about any hub-motor you want.

Offence is taken, not given. It's not my fault that you're ignorant of ebikes and you're so narrow minded. Why don't you ask people how it can be done instead of telling everybody it can't be done?

 

[matthewslack]

A rear hub motor can easily pull 140kg up a 25% slope. What are you on about? The Heinzmann system can pull 500kg up a 15.5% slope. If you want to keep your hub gears, you can use just about any hub-motor you want.

Offence is taken, not given. It's not my fault that you're ignorant of ebikes and you're so narrow minded. Why don't you ask people how it can be done instead of telling everybody it can't be done?

I'd be interested to see telemetry data and motor / battery / bike specifications for that actually being done. Even better, 150kg non-stop up the Bealach na Ba.

That's the sort of challenge my long rides always contain, and the lack of the data demonstrating success is a barrier to my moving away from mid-drive.

Everything I have seen from Grin's simulator and SunTrip reports fails to convince me that a UK legal hub motor can both climb that hill with that load, and also cruise happily at 25km/h, and return the economy level of my effort plus my mid-drive motor.

I need to be shown, not told.

 

[saneagle]

I'd be interested to see telemetry data and motor / battery / bike specifications for that actually being done. Even better, 150kg non-stop up the Bealach na Ba.

That's the sort of challenge my long rides always contain, and the lack of the data demonstrating success is a barrier to my moving away from mid-drive.

Everything I have seen from Grin's simulator and SunTrip reports fails to convince me that a UK legal hub motor can both climb that hill with that load, and also cruise happily at 25km/h, and return the economy level of my effort plus my mid-drive motor.

I need to be shown, not told.

There is no legal limit to how much power or torque an ebike can have. That's decided by the manufacturer of the system. Heinzmann chose to make theirs very powerful. IIRC, it draws about 3kw from the battery - a bit more powerful than the Grin stuff. What I stated above is written in their advertising as a fundamental characteristic. The system is used for Amazon deliveries and others, like the Post Office.

Amazon launches first fleet of e-cargo bikes in the UK

Amazon’s electric delivery vans, e-cargo bikes and walkers will make more than five million last mile deliveries a year across Central London.

www.aboutamazon.co.uk

If you want to be shown, go on their website and see as much as you want.

 

[nmmelectric]

Everything I have seen from Grin's simulator and SunTrip reports fails to convince me that a UK legal hub motor can both climb that hill with that load, and also cruise happily at 25km/h, and return the economy level of my effort plus my mid-drive motor.

And everyone's experience on another (mainly USA) forum I have frequented for some years. The people who do serious hill-climbing universally say that 250 W hub motors do not cut the mustard.

I should also be fascinated to know how you fit a hub motor and hub gears into the same wheel, unless they are integrated by the manufacturer.

 

[guerney]

trike standing outside in it overnight, for up to a fortnight. It seems that no electric cycle system is adequate for such use.

I have no reason to try this, but I believe my conversion will survive for much of that fortnight, if not all.

at least the Chinese have the common sense to stick the electronics in a separately sealed compartment.

The electronic components within the Bafang BBS01B controller are protected by silicone potting, but despite this I added silicone sealant between the gasket and the controller. I've covered all of the connectors with either self-adhesive 4:1 marine heat shrink or self-amalgamating rubber tape, sometimes both. I've made a rain hood for the display. There are two waterproof rucksack covers over my battery. I'm always out in all but snowy weather. My motor survived 13 seconds of complete submersion, the water was above both pedals - thanks to powerful pedal assist, my bike made a bow wave on it's way out of the sudden pond which appeared in the road after a sudden thunderstorm. I have no worries about water ingress.

 

[nmmelectric]

There is no legal limit to how much power or torque an ebike can have. That's decided by the manufacturer of the system. Heinzmann chose to make theirs very powerful. IIRC, it draws about 3kw from the battery - a bit more powerful than the Grin stuff. What I stated above is written in their advertising as a fundamental characteristic. The system is used for Amazon deliveries and others, like the Post Office.

Amazon launches first fleet of e-cargo bikes in the UK

Amazon’s electric delivery vans, e-cargo bikes and walkers will make more than five million last mile deliveries a year across Central London.

www.aboutamazon.co.uk

If you want to be shown, go on their website and see as much as you want.

You mean this one?

CargoPower E-Bike Motor - HEINZMANN Electric Motors

The RN 111 wheel hub motor specially developed for cargo bikes boasts innovative technology, a robust design and excellent reliability.

www.heinzmann-electric-motors.com

 

[saneagle]

And everyone's experience on another (mainly USA) forum I have frequented for some years. The people who do serious hill-climbing universally say that 250 W hub motors do not cut the mustard.

I should also be fascinated to know how you fit a hub motor and hub gears into the same wheel, unless they are integrated by the manufacturer.

I've been on ES for 14 years. Like you, they're mainly very narrow minded in their opinions. They think a hub-motor is 1000w 7 Continent clone. Most have never heard of or seen a Heinzmann motor. Some short discussion here:

Heinzmann RN111 cargo bike motor

Has anyone successfully used the Heinzmann RN111 cargo bike motor in their build? I got my hands on one and I'm now trying to make it work with Vesc 6 but I'm having trouble getting the sensors to work. They have fairly good info on their website but unfortunately, it does not state anything...

endless-sphere.com

 

[saneagle]

You mean this one?

CargoPower E-Bike Motor - HEINZMANN Electric Motors

The RN 111 wheel hub motor specially developed for cargo bikes boasts innovative technology, a robust design and excellent reliability.

www.heinzmann-electric-motors.com

That's the single motor that can still do what you want. Their 250w Cargotwinpower system can do 500kg up 15.5% all day. Personally, I'd use an ordinary large 250w 48v hub-motor mounted between your pedals and hub with a 2:1 reduction.

 

[nmmelectric]

That's the single motor that can still do what you want. Their 250w Cargotwinpower system can do 500kg up 15.5% all day. Personally, I'd use an ordinary large 250w 48v hub-motor mounted between your pedals and hub with a 2:1 reduction.

Fine. In which case, it isn't legal for use on UK roads. The slowest I (or most people) can ride with a 20" bottom gear is 2.4 MPH (40 RPM), and 500 Kg up a 15.5% slope at that speed is c. 800 watts. The law states clearly that an EAPC motor must not be able to maintain more than 250 watts for 30 minutes. A bottom gear of 6" (to reduce it to 250 watts) would just be plain silly (as well as infeasible, because I couldn't get the parts), because I wouldn't be able to pedal at more than 6 MPH in top gear! This thread contains everything you need to know, including a link to EN 15194.

Pedelec Law - The Details

I think many of you will be aware of what a complex subject electric assist bicycle law is and pitfalls in trying to second guess it. As a result, and with my knowledge of it since joining the trade 70 years ago, I'm often called upon in here to give answers on the subject. But of course I...

www.pedelecs.co.uk

And, no, I could not fit an intermediate drive on my trike, because there is nowhere to put it.

 

[guerney]

Having never ridden a hub motored bike, and despite having a mid-drive, I'm all for the idea of hub drives. There seems to be less to go wrong in an hub motor. @Nealh told tale of a 500W Bafang BPM being supplied with 2kW on Endless Sphere. I've seen heatsink and ferrofluid cooling mods for hub motors on Youtube. I'm sure all manner of capabilities of easily obtainable and inexpensive 250W rated hub motors can be unlocked by the determined, and legally. However, seems to me you will need to spend more on better batteries than you would for a cheap Chinese mid-drive conversion providing equivalent capability.

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/looking-for-an-alternative-to-swytch-and-would-appreciate-some-advice-in-conversion-kits-general-discussion.45712/page-3#post-686768

 

[Saracen]

There is no need to be offensive.

I want to be able to get 140 Kg up at least a 200 m height 25% slope (and can provide only 100 watts myself), which is one problem with UK road-legal hub motors. That's over 90 nm at the hub, and 450 watts for over 8 minutes at a cadence of 60 rpm, or a more moderate power for 12.5 minutes at a cadence of 40 rpm. Hub motors don't like that sort of thing much, and I don't like the latter much!

The other is that I am not going to downgrade my Rohloff to a derailleur.

LOL you want to come to Wales I get up a 19 % hill on a 250 watt going to Aberystwyth and many places