1000w ebike ???
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until i flew 3 or 4 times a week, i always used to carry a leatherman (as did nearly all of the guys who worked for mem)
in fact its quite similar to the discussion going on on ebikes....
1. the leatherman, although in fact its a fairly vicious thing to those in the know, to your average joe in the street, its a pair of pliers.
the 1000w ebike looks just like the 250w ebike to your average joe (fair point to both sides, the 'we'll all get banned' lobby and the 'no one cares' contingent
2. the leatherman is most useful as a pair of pliers or screwdriver
big power bikes are pretty useless imho - what you gain in speed you lose in rrange and risk (not for me anyways) the stealth i rode felt flimsy and scary at 250w, let alone 1000w (just my 2p)
3. there aren't enough of them for people to care
exactly like ebikes
4. its not a sexy headline grabber 'rampage with deadly multi tool'
push bike with big motor you can buy off ebay for less money thana 10x as powerful motorbike.....
5. too expensive to be mainstream
this is less true for both leatherman and ebikes i think than it used to be, but still a valid point - its cheaper and more damaging to buy a motorbike than a pedelec.
its worth noting that the numbers and comparisons are often exagerated by sellers.....1000w ebike, you'll get about 30mph out of it and costs around 1200 quid for a budget ebay job, a 125 scooter or motorbike will push 70 mph and you can buy one for less moeny, i've bought 1000cc motorbikes for around that money too.
6. everybody who owns one likes talking about how illegal they are and they carry them anyways
i think this is the valid point in this whole discussion, actually if you want to ride an illegal bike, crack on - but be discrete about it, if you need help making something work, then people on here will help you, if you need advice, they'll advise you, but bragging rights is just a bit dumb imho.....
that said, i still reckon no chance of a ban, though of course its interesting to see the traders mostly share concerns about this - of course if my livelihood depended on it, i might see more risk too.
bottom line from my perspective, i weight >100kg, have half of both feet missing, and have never found 250w of mid range hub drive to be underpowered or lacking in speed. if i want to go faster, i've got motorbikes and track cars to play with
(to be fair when i first started riding pedelecs, i was keen to work out how to derestrict my bh (natural curiosity and wanting to beat the system) then two things happened....1. i watched what it did to battery 2. i got my cycling fitness back and started needing the motor less.)
You're not reading the law correctly.
That's just word-play. Everyone knows a 250W-rated motor can potentially generate MORE than 250W of power output if sufficient current is put through it and depending on factors like incline, torque etc. The point is the motors nominal power rated output, call it whatever you like, under normal conditions, should be no more than 250W.
This is news to me. European Union directive 2002/24/EC makes no mention of a 10% allowance. The law is quite specific 15.5mph. Where did you get that 17mph limit from?
Full throttles (without pedaling) were outlawed in-line with EU law, with effect from 1st January 2016 this year by new legislation:
Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles (Amendment) Regulations 2015
It hasn't changed, you're right it's still 14 minimum age. That's the only difference between UK law and the EU law, as it stands now, and the fact the throttle-only restriction is not being applied retrospectively on older e-bikes made and/or purchased before 1st January 2016.
It's incredibly simple. You're choosing to make it look complicated over minor details, when in reality it's not complicated at all. There's 4 simple steps to consider when keeping e-bike road legal:
1. Maximum 250 Watt rated power output motor.
2. No throttle without pedaling (unless made or purchased prior to 1st January 2016).
3. Maximum speed under power from motor when pedaling no more than 15.5mph.
4. Minimum riding age as you indicated, still 14.
Yeah i remember that thread and i posted on it..... cant be bothered to read all 8 pages again, but i remember a lot of posts from helmet wearers telling non helmet wearers that they should wear them.
Cant remember ever seeing posts on that thread, or even this forum, from non helmet wearers telling helmet wearers that they shouldn't wear helmets.
Not wordplay at all. The first one is the most important distinction. A motor rated no more than 250w, running at 42v, pulling 20A is just as legal as one pulling 10A.
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That doesn't make it right or legal, still knowingly doing something illegal.
The only similarity is that you're trying to justify doing two things which are illegal. Simply because you don't agree with the law, or think it shouldn't apply to you?
Well you said yourself it's illegal. So you know this, and yet you risk a £5,000 fine and 4 years in prison? It doesn't matter how it's perceived, the law is the law. If you have no good reason for carrying it, or a police officer is not satisfied by your reason, you will have to take your chances before a Magistrate. And people who have an attitude of "well the law is silly and i couldn't care less" they usually like to make an example of and can apply the maximum sentence to deter others.
No way. I can spot a 1000W motor a mile away. Anyone who even knows a little about e-bikes can tell the difference between a legal 250W hub motor and a great big massive 1000W hub motor which fills a much larger area of the wheel, sounds much louder, and definitely moves and sounds more like a low powered moped than an e-bike would do if used it to maximum speed capacity or at twice the 15.5mph limit. In no way do that look legal to an onlooker. And once police are eventually trained properly on what a legal and illegal motor looks like it, it won't be difficult for them to spot them either, or tell with a visual check, which bike is an unregistered motorcycle.
No doubt. But you still can't carry an illegal knife in public just on the basis it's a useful tool to carry about. You need a plausible reason to be carrying it to get an exclusion from arrest and possible prosecution (for example, a chef might need to bring his knives with him if he's doing contract work at different sites, or someone who has just returned from hunting or fishing holiday might be returning home with a large fixed blade knife).
Well I'd agree with you 100%. Big power pedelecs are pretty useless. If you need that much power, you're using the wrong tool for the job. You need an electric motorcycle or electric moped and you have to have all the costs and hassles that goes with it if you want the power and benefits. Having an e-bike version is trying to take a short-cut around the law.
Remember a pedelec, is basically a bicycle, with a minor enhancement to allow you to pedal easier up hills. That's the purpose. It's not intended to be an insurance-free, license-free, tax-free, vehicle-type-free alternative to a moped or motorcycle. That's what some people seem to be using them for. However as you said, what is the point? Yes you can go 30-40mph, but not very far before the battery is completely drained. And you risk landing yourself in very serious trouble if you even have ONE major accident that involves insurance companies and/or police. Even just falling off due to mechanical failure and ending up in hospital badly hurt, being a traffic accident incident, could result in the police being called, and asking how it happened and looking at your bike, then you'd be pretty screwed.
The law is the law tho. Whether we like it or not, that's the law and you need to follow it like everyone else does. If you can't afford the fine and you can't do the time, then don't the crime eh. And really is it worth the fine, the time, for a damn multi-tool knife?! Just leave it at home and carry the tools instead.
I'm not so sure. Knife crime is a major problem in UK, and any arrest for a knife offense makes local news. The irony of your story would appeal to the media.. "Local man gets £5,000 fine and suspended 4 year prison sentence for carrying a fixed blade illegal knife with no plausible reason..."it's a multi-tool" defense rejected by court".
£148 for 1000W kit too expensive?! C'mon. People on welfare could afford that and save up for the battery, or build one themselves
That just doesn't compute to me. Doesn't add up at all.
There's absolutely no comparison in terms of cost of ownership and running costs when you're comparing a motorbike v 1000W e-bike. It's precisely why we have people riding around on them, as a cheaper (but illegal) alternative to a motorbike. There's absolutely no reason why you need to be riding a 1000W e-bike on public footpaths and roads, unless you're trying to get something closer to a motorbike's performance, minus the costs and legal responsibilities that come with it.
Let's compare the costs of motorcycle ownership:
1. The initial cost is going to be a lot more than £148+battery, probably 5-10x more for a brand new motorcycle in the electric moped category.
2. You're going to need a proper motorcycle helmet.
3. You're going to need to hold a valid driving license with a full motorcycle pass or else do CBT tests every 2 years and ride AM category. That means riding lessons and test costs, plus the license fee of course.
4. If your motorcycle is a grey-import, it's going to need Vehicle Type registration. That's going to cost money.
5. You need a valid MOT certificate every year to ride on road.
6. Petrol is not cheap compared to 5p /30 miles on electric.
7. You may have road tax depending on the size of motorcycle engine.
8. You're severely restricted in where you can park, and will have to pay parking fees.
The performance is irrelevant. The only number that matters is the 1000W one on the motor and the fact its illegal to be on a bicycle on public roads. Whether it goes as fast as a motorcycle or 15.5mph is no excuse if you get caught riding one, especially if you're involved in an accident or just happen to get noticed by an eagle eyed bobby who is clued up on e-bikes and has some time on his hands to pull you over.
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Prisons are full of fools like them. Most people in prison made a bad decision. Carrying an illegal knife definitely falls into that category. Imagine doing 2-3 years in the nick for just carrying a knife, how foolish you'd feel. Likewise, imagine losing your driving license for 5 years (and maybe your job) and having a criminal record, for the sake of riding a bicycle 30 mph.6. everybody who owns one likes talking about how illegal they are and they carry them anyways
Well thats sensible advice. If you MUST ride an illegal bike and take that silly risk of being prosecuted, than at least be responsible about it, and discrete as you say. Bragging about it or showing the bike off on a very public social media platform is not a smart move, for yourself or for all other e-bike owners in that category.
Outright ban, not sure, probably not. Regulation on the entire industry a distinct possibility, going by the governments previous knee-jerk approach to pandering to the media and rapid policy shaping and legislation passing on a whole range of industries and issues...usually because of a tiny few isolated incidents after which they decide "ok that needs outlawing or regulating" for "public safety". All we need is a 1000W e-bike to kill someone llitle kid, or a really bad accident on the road involving one and the rider and a car driver critically injured, and it will be the knee-jerk policy response from government once they find out how many more are on the roads, and that people are actually riding them as bicycles on pavements.
My thinking is this... let's not give them any excuses or situations where such a knee-jerk reaction and regulation and/or partial ban is possible. If people just followed the law sensibly, this situation couldn't and wouldn't arise. If you need more power than a legal e-bike offers, either get better gearings and pedal, or move to a moped/motorcyle or small AM category micro car.
That's very sensible! You can enjoy your e-bike without keeping having to look over your shoulder, knowing that you're illegal and worrying about the law or being involved in a bad accident!bottom line from my perspective, i weight >100kg, have half of both feet missing, and have never found 250w of mid range hub drive to be underpowered or lacking in speed. if i want to go faster, i've got motorbikes and track cars to play with
I think we all went through that stage of trying to push the limits of what an e-bike could do in the early days...but now that e-bikes are becoming more mainstream and no longer confined to a few people on a forum, we have to look at the bigger picture and take some responsibility as a now very large community of users across the UK, where individual actions can have an impact on the entire community and the industry. As you said, many peoples livelihoods depends on e-bikes and many people live for e-bikes. It would be a shame to see a repeat of what happened with the natural health supplements industry and massive regulation and licensing, where 100,000s of businesses were put out of business, and millions of consumers had far less choice, and were forced to pay much higher costs for something once cheaper, as larger corporations stepped into a tightly regulated marketplace with high cost barriers to entry.
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Well it is playing with words really over the definition of rating v power-output.
You're correct of course in stating that the correct term would be "power rated" but to all intents and purposes, that is taken to mean, the nominal power output capable under normal riding conditions.
Of course a 250W rated motor can potentially put out a LOT more power than 250W if you dump enough voltage into it and it's able to draw sufficient current.
That's not relevant to the law in terms of consumers choosing and using an e-bike which is legally compliant and legal to use on the roads. Providing you have a 250W rated motor fitted and the controller restricts it to 15.5mph when pedaling, there's no problem and no confusion.
If your 250W motor suddenly puts out 350W on a hill, that's not breaking the law. You're still riding a bicycle with a nominally rated 250W motor, and still restricted to 15.5mph.
Well I took the side firmly against helmets. I didn't actually tell people they SHOULD stop wearing helmets, but I did say I don't wear one and couldn't see the point in wearing one. I pointed out the conflicting evidence and studies carried out. So in a way, I was saying, do you really need to look like an alien from Mars just to ride your bicycle? Nobody wore bicycle helmets ever when I was a youth, and we didn't have loads of people walking around brain damaged. It seems to be a racket and there's no evidence to prove 100% it's going to protect your head if you fall off. Neither is it a legal requirement to wear one, which is probably a good indicator that the government has decided they're not 100% safe. Some helmets as I said earlier, actually could do more harm than good if you were in a very bad accident.
The only situations I would recommend a bicycle helmet are:
1) Young children learning to ride a 2 wheel bicycle for the first time likely to take a few falls.
2) Elderly people who are more likely to take a fall and suffer more severe injuries in the process due to more fragile bones.
3) People who commute or are on roads a lot, or are into high-speed bicycle racing, and have selected a helmet which has been properly safety tested and certified.
Everyone else can save their money and image credibility!
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That disclaimer agreement is so lame and typical of a company run by people with no brains. I can guarantee you it won't be worth the paper its written in a court situation (and may even be used against them) if someone has a serious accident on their bicycles they could legally be in very serious trouble and facing mega fines. This really serves to highlight how bloody stupid the people who sell these bikes and kits are, if they think a legal disclaimer agreement will protect them from the law! One phone call to a lawyer, will tell you, you cannot make something illegal, legal, by having a contract, neither can you protect yourself from legal consequences of breaking laws and causing harm to people by making your customers sign a piece of paper.
I'm not a lawyer, but I have a basic grasp of the law..I'd wager that this company will be facing the following if someone has an injury on these bikes or someone reports the company, probably a parent of a child injured.
1) Professional and commercial negligence for knowingly supplying the bike not fit for purpose itself and the information to knowingly make it illegal and unsafe to ride on public highways and footpaths, and by doing so, ignoring your legal responsibilities as a trader to the consumer.
2) Criminal liability, on many areas of legislation, the Supply & Sale of Goods Act, The Trades Description Act.. and no doubt many areas of safety legislation governing the sale of electric vehicles. These bikes ARE motorcycles according to the law, that means this company selling them has a legal responsibility to either Type Register them, or inform customers that they need to be Type Registered as electric motorcycles before being used on roads. Not doing so and marketing them as bicycle e-bikes is highly misleading and putting consumers into a situation where they could face serious injuries and criminal prosecutions.
Their public indemnity insurance (assuming they even have any) policy will also very likely be invalidated, and not cover them against potentially unlimited fines and compensation claims.
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Let's see how happy he is when some child or elderly person is dead, and he's in prison doing a long stretch.Or maybe it will never happen and we'll all live happily ever after. Just like that guy does.
Life's full of hypotheticals. You really should go and join a dark-net forum and lay the law down to them. We're riding bikes on here.
Or go spam the sellers. You'll find them on ebay or google.
The link to the law is on the home page. Is it really necessary to type reams to remind folks within almost every thread?
Thanks for your "suggestions" but I'm fine where I'm at thanks.Life's full of hypotheticals. You really should go and join a dark-net forum and lay the law down to them. We're riding bikes on here.
Or go spam the sellers. You'll find them on ebay or google.
The link to the law is on the home page. Is it really necessary to type reams to remind folks within almost every thread?
Here's my suggestion: If you don't like the law as it is, why don't you form a political party with your little group and repeal the laws?
Absolutely. They clearly need reminding they're breaking the law and putting themselves and everyone else at risk.The link to the law is on the home page. Is it really necessary to type reams to remind folks within almost every thread?
I have a better idea for dealing with the sellers. There's a range of options there.
My Leatherman (w/locking blade) is part of my bike repair toolkit and goes everywhere with me where I take my bike.
At all times it is kept in its pouch, which is somewhere at the bottom of a cliplock tupperware box with all my other bike kit, which in turn is kept at the bottom of my right pannier bag.
There is no way that it could be proved that I am carrying it with intent and is clearly part of my bike kit, so IMO the risk is pretty much zero.
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