Scooter / Moped style. Legal?

[OldFart]

Will a link work? Spotted this on ebay and other scooters that look like full sized
petrol ones..

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291252226125

But are they legal, I have been reading older threads where its been debated and
probably more confused now than before.

That one says its a tandem, 2 seats so legally allowed to be 250w not 200w.

Threads about the pedals being more of a cosmetic item than genuine usable
pedals. Gearing ratio = you can move but very slowly almost useless. But surely
if it can be pedalled then its a bike?

There was mention of court cases but i could not find any links to the outcome.

Thanks.


EDIT: Something bigger like this?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151429274550

 

[Alan Quay]

Even if it were technically legal (it probably isn't) you would be stopped by every passing police car, cos it looks like a moped but displays no plates.

 

[D8ve]

The weight limit of 40 kg should put it into the illegal class.

 

[OldFart]

Seems they class them as a tandem so legally 60kg?

One i am watching at the moment appears to be right on the 40kg.

Can a tandem be powered by one rider only?

 

[jackhandy]

.

Can a tandem be powered by one rider only?

Most of the hire tandems I see on the Camel Trail are...
Quite rare to see the Stoker pulling HER weight

 

[GloveMakingMan]

I thought about buying one of these but decided on the folder. I rung a dealer of these scooters as i too was concerned about the legal side. He assured me they were, he wouldn't have put £1000's into his new business if thought there could be problems and i could contact DVLA if i wished. He admitted they were very hard to pedal!!!! The biggest problem i could see with them , one that would make them dangerous.... to other road users they appear to be ordinary scooters BUT they only trundle along at 15mph, holding up traffic and causing frustration. And of course, imagine riding one of these with no helmet, you're going to be stopped by the police quite often i would think!?

 

[GloveMakingMan]

I've been told that you see a lot of these in the city. Where i live in North Devon i've never seen another ebike so an electric scooter would attract a llot of attention, much of it from the police i should think?

 

[flecc]

As long as it's classified as being 250 watts it's likely to be legal. One of our members, Synthman, rides one of these and tells us he has no trouble with the police bothering him about it's legality. The key thing as far as the authorities are concerned is that it must be possible to pedal them along, and it usually is.

Here is a link to Synthman's post on his police experiences, complete with photo of his scooter e-bike, which tells you all you need to know.
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[Deleted member 4366]

They are legal as long as you carry a brochure or plate that says it's 250W (200w ideal) and the pedals work because you will get stopped by the police occasionally, and sometimes they take some convincing.

My neighbour's boy had one for a while. The police came round his house to see his parents about it, but when they were shown the original documentation and regulations from an electric bike website (not the DfT one), they went away happy.

His one was a 36v one that had an extra battery added and new controller to take it to 48v, which made it much better at hill-climbing and increased its speed to about 20 mph. It could just manage a 14% hill with 110kg on board. The pedals are pretty useless, but they meet the minimum legal requirement.

 

[GloveMakingMan]

The dealer chap also told me that the tandem version allowed them to increase the weight of the E-scooter. Imagine seeing one of these with two people on it, but the one i looked at only had one set of pedals and those could easily be just pulled off to make it look like a motor scooter. If i lived in the city i would love one, they are quite cheap to buy and you get a lot for your money. Just make sure you don't run out of battery miles from home!

 

[shemozzle999]

Have a read of these cases and then you can make up your own mind whether to invest in one:

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2008/447.html&query=electric and bicycle&method=boolean

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2002/1524.html&query=electric
and bicycle&method=boolean

Current Law:

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/uk/legis/num_reg/1983/uksi_19831168_en.html&query=electric+and+bicycle&method=boolean

 

[flecc]

Those frequently quoted cases are not in any way relevant to the type of scooter style e-bike in question though. They have been widely accepted as legal and to the best of my knowledge have never been at trial on the question of their legality.

Also the current law link quoted does not take into account that there is permission for 250 watts now, since the police have been instructed not to prosecute otherwise legal e-bikes of up to that power.
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[Deleted member 4366]

A couple of interesting points have come out of this. These scooters with double seats are in fact tandems, so the weight limit is 60kg, not 40kg, which explains the weight discrepancies we noted in previous threads. As well as a seat for the passenger, there must also be a place to put his/her feet.

The present UK law regarding the motor says, ...has a continuous rated output which, when installed in the vehicle with the nominal voltage supplied... does not exceed 0.2kW for a bicycle or .25kW for a tandem.

"with the nominal voltage applied" is an important phrase. It would appear then, that you can over-volt your motor to get more power. Also "rated output" is a key phrase. It doesn't say actual output. Any test done to verify the motor would have to be done in the way that the motor is rated, not to the actual current and voltage applied to the bike in question.

 

[flecc]

Any test done to verify the motor would have to be done in the way that the motor is rated, not to the actual current and voltage applied to the bike in question.

.
The testing standard prescribed by the EAPC law is to BS1727.
.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

.
The testing standard prescribed by the EAPC law is to BS1727.
.

Which describes the way that the motor should be rated?

 

[flecc]

I'm assured so, but since that BS costs lots of wonga I'm not about to check!
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[GloveMakingMan]

Think the law may not have changed since the year 2000 ref but the bikes / scooters have. Todays E-scooters are just bikes with an overcoat on them, a bit like they make some mobility scooters to look like cars!

 

[OldFart]

So its looking like they are legal then. I was thinking of getting a numberplate made up with the details on.

Seen an advert that has a plate with the makers name, The voltage and motor power output. Not sure if its a shop thing but thought ideal for a following police car.
Maybe less likely to be stopped if keeping my feet on the pedals rather than the running boards?
It maybe more comfortable for me anyway.

As long as i keep the speed to around 15mph, Although that does have me wondering how i would tackle certain 40mph roads around here. Would i want to turn right on a 3 lane roundabout, exiting onto another 3 lane road?

One thing i have not really seen or maybe i have not looked enough. 12 - 16" wheels/motors that some of these seem to use.

Would the motors be a universal size? Or is it possible to buy something unique and not find spares?

Big thanks.

 

[flecc]

Given that these are small scale sellers and mostly marketed online, it may be that spares like new motors won't be available. Things like batteries and controllers are usually available though. They are generally quite reliable, huge numbers of them are routinely used in China for daily commuting.

So perhaps best either bought new to get as much life as possible for the cost, or bought cheaply second hand while being prepared to write off the cost.
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Surely tandems would have to have 2 sets of pedals that power the bike?
Otherwise they are a bike with a pillion passenger,max weight 40kgs.
When you read the spec the weight is always stated as 39.5 kgs and the motor as 250 watts....very convenient! I tried to pick one up at a show,it definitely weighed more than 40 kgs,it felt motorcycle weight.
My attitude is that you might as well buy a Tesco Hopper and be legal,to make those moped/scooters perform,they have to be illegal power but nobody to date has taken the trouble to disprove their legality.
Its sort of like the S class bikes-350 watt and 28mph,all will be ok as long as you dont hit anything or more critical anybody. Someone will definitely weigh one of these scooters,in the event of an accident.In this day of 'no win,no fee' injury cases and without insurance its one hell of a risk.
KudosDave